11 ms·

Their definition of "non-trivial" includes using computed member expressions, so the following program is not supported: var greetings = {world: "Hello Wor

by phpnode 12y ago

Their definition of "non-trivial" includes using computed member expressions, so the following program is not supported: var greetings = {world: "Hello World"}; var subject = 'world'; console.log(greetings[subject]); This is zealotry in action, who do they think is going to use this?

mapleoin 12y ago
People who care more about freedom than comfort?
- petepete 12y ago
  But how is the above sample 'unfree'?
  - cokernel 12y ago
    There is no license notice in the sample. LibreJS looks for a license notice as a comment in the script: http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Free-Licenses-Detection http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Free...
  - rglullis 12y ago
    The main goal of the GPL is to allow that programs can be understood and modified by user. A "trivial" javascript program accomplishes that, regardless of license. The sample above is "non-trivial" according to the set of heuristics they are using, so they are just saying "if the program is not trivial, then you need to explicitly state that it is GPL for us to consider it free"
    - mattl 12y ago
      Not GPL, but any free software license.
  - mattl 12y ago
    Without a license, the assumption is that it is proprietary.
    - Alupis 12y ago
      So, all that in-line javascript on my website suddenly is "proprietary" even though it's usually just a few lines? (as a consequence, my entire site won't work for users with this enabled)
      - seba_dos1 12y ago
        That's why triviality heuristics are there.
      - belorn 12y ago
        Please contact your local politician and make the copyright scope more sane. That way, a few lines won't be copyright-able and we don't need licenses for it.
        Alupis 12y ago
        Seriously guy -- why even bother surfing the internet? I mean -- the websites you are visiting are bound to be using non-free proprietary software. At least a few of them. Actually -- the routers your packets travel through are using proprietary non-free software! The BIOS that boots your PC is non-free and proprietary! Just throw your computer out -- that is the only sure way to stop using non-free software. (actually, don't throw it out -- just mail it to me ;)
- StevePerkins 12y ago
  It's strange how age and the passage of time can change you. When I was in my 20's, I used to say things exactly like this. The further along I get into my 30's, the more I read things like this and experience the same feeling I get when reading "9/11 Truth" material.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  People who care more about the delusional ranting of Stallman than actually using any web service today? Oh yeah, using jquery is "non-trivial". What a load of crap.
  - mattl 12y ago
    jQuery, even in its compressed form makes a license known. /! jQuery v1.11.1 | (c) 2005, 2014 jQuery Foundation, Inc. | jquery.org/license / It's not ideal, but I'll take it.
    - raverbashing 12y ago
      See this: http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#JavaScript-Detection http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Java... The $.doSomething(); example
  - _ak 12y ago
    Stallman talking about the web is like a Catholic priest talking about sexual intercourse: he has no practical experience with it and has no idea what he's talking about.
    - mattl 12y ago
      Maybe so, that's why he asked people like John Resig (creator of jQuery) and myself to assist him.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > Stallman talking about the web is like a Catholic priest talking about sexual intercourse: he has no practical experience with it Completely tangentially, its quite possible to be a Catholic priest [1], have never violated any Catholic teaching or discipline, and have practical experience with sexual intercourse. Catholic priests can't get married, and men usually can't become priests in the Latin Rite if they are currently married [2], but widowers can be ordained priests in the Latin Rite, and married men can become priests in the Eastern Rites. And, in any case, even in theory, becoming a priest doesn't require one to never have violated teaching on this (or any other) point before so doing. [1] in the usual sense of a "priest in a church in union with Rome", not extending that to breakaway or never-in-union churches that might have "Catholic" in their name. [2] But there are exceptions to this rule.
jordigh 12y ago
That's only if there is no license block. If there's a license block, it takes it at face value. So if the code really is free, putting a license statement to that effect should be enough. I know people are going to say "what about minification", but c'mon, it's the 21st century, web servers know how to compress data streams when they send them and web browsers know how to decompress them. Minification for the purpose of saving bandwidth is a bugbear.
- austinpray 12y ago
  Minification improves the effectiveness of algorithms like Gzip by a large margin. It is generally a great idea to minify then Gzip. https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/optimizing-content-efficiency/optimize-encoding-and-transfer#text-compression-with-gzip https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/o...
belorn 12y ago
Its not possible for humans to determine if a work qualify under copyright, so getting a computer to do it is about as impossible task as one can make it. You can put in arbitrary heuristics and argue how many expressions, lines, or words should be required for copyright status, but then there will always be up to a judge if you guessed right. The options here seems to either not include any detection for the copyright scope, or try invent something and hope that people will send in patches when it hit a false positive. If you think such plugin should detect something as trivial code which it currently classify as not, send in a patch.
of 12y ago
I'm one of the maintainers for LibreJS, and we are discussing the issue of triviality right now. If you have any input, don't hesitate to send a message to the mailing list (help-librejs@gnu.org) -- https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-librejs https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-librejs
of 12y ago
https://savannah.gnu.org/task/?13304 https://savannah.gnu.org/task/?13304

by phpnode 12y ago

mapleoin 12y ago

People who care more about freedom than comfort?

petepete 12y ago
But how is the above sample 'unfree'?
- cokernel 12y ago
  There is no license notice in the sample. LibreJS looks for a license notice as a comment in the script: http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Free-Licenses-Detection http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Free...
- rglullis 12y ago
  The main goal of the GPL is to allow that programs can be understood and modified by user. A "trivial" javascript program accomplishes that, regardless of license. The sample above is "non-trivial" according to the set of heuristics they are using, so they are just saying "if the program is not trivial, then you need to explicitly state that it is GPL for us to consider it free"
  - mattl 12y ago
    Not GPL, but any free software license.
- mattl 12y ago
  Without a license, the assumption is that it is proprietary.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    So, all that in-line javascript on my website suddenly is "proprietary" even though it's usually just a few lines? (as a consequence, my entire site won't work for users with this enabled)
    - seba_dos1 12y ago
      That's why triviality heuristics are there.
    - belorn 12y ago
      Please contact your local politician and make the copyright scope more sane. That way, a few lines won't be copyright-able and we don't need licenses for it.
      - Alupis 12y ago
        Seriously guy -- why even bother surfing the internet? I mean -- the websites you are visiting are bound to be using non-free proprietary software. At least a few of them. Actually -- the routers your packets travel through are using proprietary non-free software! The BIOS that boots your PC is non-free and proprietary! Just throw your computer out -- that is the only sure way to stop using non-free software. (actually, don't throw it out -- just mail it to me ;)
StevePerkins 12y ago
It's strange how age and the passage of time can change you. When I was in my 20's, I used to say things exactly like this. The further along I get into my 30's, the more I read things like this and experience the same feeling I get when reading "9/11 Truth" material.
raverbashing 12y ago
People who care more about the delusional ranting of Stallman than actually using any web service today? Oh yeah, using jquery is "non-trivial". What a load of crap.
- mattl 12y ago
  jQuery, even in its compressed form makes a license known. /! jQuery v1.11.1 | (c) 2005, 2014 jQuery Foundation, Inc. | jquery.org/license / It's not ideal, but I'll take it.
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    See this: http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#JavaScript-Detection http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Java... The $.doSomething(); example
- _ak 12y ago
  Stallman talking about the web is like a Catholic priest talking about sexual intercourse: he has no practical experience with it and has no idea what he's talking about.
  - mattl 12y ago
    Maybe so, that's why he asked people like John Resig (creator of jQuery) and myself to assist him.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > Stallman talking about the web is like a Catholic priest talking about sexual intercourse: he has no practical experience with it Completely tangentially, its quite possible to be a Catholic priest [1], have never violated any Catholic teaching or discipline, and have practical experience with sexual intercourse. Catholic priests can't get married, and men usually can't become priests in the Latin Rite if they are currently married [2], but widowers can be ordained priests in the Latin Rite, and married men can become priests in the Eastern Rites. And, in any case, even in theory, becoming a priest doesn't require one to never have violated teaching on this (or any other) point before so doing. [1] in the usual sense of a "priest in a church in union with Rome", not extending that to breakaway or never-in-union churches that might have "Catholic" in their name. [2] But there are exceptions to this rule.

jordigh 12y ago

That's only if there is no license block. If there's a license block, it takes it at face value. So if the code really is free, putting a license statement to that effect should be enough. I know people are going to say "what about minification", but c'mon, it's the 21st century, web servers know how to compress data streams when they send them and web browsers know how to decompress them. Minification for the purpose of saving bandwidth is a bugbear.

austinpray 12y ago
Minification improves the effectiveness of algorithms like Gzip by a large margin. It is generally a great idea to minify then Gzip. https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/optimizing-content-efficiency/optimize-encoding-and-transfer#text-compression-with-gzip https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/o...

belorn 12y ago

Its not possible for humans to determine if a work qualify under copyright, so getting a computer to do it is about as impossible task as one can make it. You can put in arbitrary heuristics and argue how many expressions, lines, or words should be required for copyright status, but then there will always be up to a judge if you guessed right. The options here seems to either not include any detection for the copyright scope, or try invent something and hope that people will send in patches when it hit a false positive. If you think such plugin should detect something as trivial code which it currently classify as not, send in a patch.

of 12y ago

I'm one of the maintainers for LibreJS, and we are discussing the issue of triviality right now. If you have any input, don't hesitate to send a message to the mailing list (help-librejs@gnu.org) -- https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-librejs https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-librejs

of 12y ago

https://savannah.gnu.org/task/?13304 https://savannah.gnu.org/task/?13304