5 ms·

There are plenty of startups using ASP.NET or Java-based tech. In fact most companies started by "business types" are .NET/Java because they are easier to find

by tx 19y ago

There are plenty of startups using ASP.NET or Java-based tech. In fact most companies started by "business types" are .NET/Java because they are easier to find disposable coders for. You don't see as many .NET shops here because most posters are (a) young, (b) non-business types, and they had a chance to pick a technology. Most went with something dynamic and Linux-based. We did too. We're on RoR, despite having tons of .NET expertise. And here is why: (a) speed of developemnt, (b) cost of decent dedicated hosting, (c) more fun

axod 19y ago
Please don't group Java together with .NET :D
- Shorel 19y ago
  Why not? In a world with C++, Phyton, Ruby and Lisp both are very similar.
- Goladus 19y ago
  System.Console.WriteLine("Hi, I'm a .NET library function for the CLR being called in C#"); System.out.println("Hi, I'm a Java library function for Java being called in Java"); Java The Language and C# are extremely similar, and if the differences bother you that much you can use J#. Java and .NET both provide managed runtime environments. Java and .NET both provide a large library of functions for that environment. I'd say if you're going to put Java and .NET into different categories, you should have some solid reasons, so let's hear them.
  - axod 19y ago
    Java and C#/C++ are very similar languages as far as I know. ASP.NET seems very similar to PHP. .NET just sounds a horrible mess. VB.NET? why would anyone touch anything that has a language 'visual' 'beginners'. Don't those two words hint at anything? Comparing Java (the language) to .NET (the system that lots of m$ languages run on) doesn't make much sense though IMHO.
    - pc 19y ago
      "C#/C++" is about as valid as "Java/JavaScript".
      - DanielBMarkham 19y ago
        Nice slogan, but fails when put to the test. C#/C++ = both OOP languages, semi-color delimited, mostly early binding, strong typing, etc. Java and JavaScript are not anywhere near as close. OOP vs prototypes, loose typing vs. strong typing, closure-functional style vs imperative style, etc.
        nkohari 19y ago
        No offense, but you clearly have not used both languages. When you consider the platform in addition to the syntax, C# is absolutely nothing like C++. C# is managed, garbage collected, bytecode-based and JITted. Saying C++ and C# are similar is like saying that technically a unicycle and an airplane are the same because they can both help you get somewhere.
        DanielBMarkham 19y ago
        Everybody knows that Java is just C++ with the sharp edges taken off. C# is Microsoft's Java-killer. C# and C++ are directly related to each other. It's the same lineage. Where do you think you get the idea of constructors, interfaces, friends, volatile methods, etc? I understand that C# is managed, but how the runtime handles memory allocation to me just isn't the deal-killer you're making it out to be. There's lot's of ways to have managed C++ code. Third-parties have been making smart memory managers for C++ for as long as I can remember. Look -- I love C++. It's my favorite language of all, not that I'd code anything in it anymore. I've done Java, I've done Javascript (a lot of it), and I've done a lot of C#. I know the languages. C# is much closer to C++ than Java is to Javascript. You made a cute comment. I called bs on you. Get over it. Best way to get out of a hole is to stop digging.
        nkohari 19y ago
  - jdavid 19y ago
    Java can not manage memory marshaling between win32 apps and managed code. In Java, you need to message pass with pipes, and its a pain. In Linux Piping is really fast, but in Windows, Piping is slow. I really like being able to code C++ and C# in the same solution, but in different projects, while being able to step through all layers of the code. Remote Debuging, and RPC calls are way better in .NET Also if you are doing XML, and Web Service calls (soap, get, post) .NET includes the functional layering and interface segmentation to access each of the protocols independently or together. In my opinion, if you want to set up some sort of transactional API, .NET has leaps and bounds better performance and professionals level tools. If you are trying to hack something together, .NET has a large learning curve, and requires disciplined programing to get any practical use out of it.
    - icky 19y ago
      > In Java, you need to message pass with pipes, and its a pain. What, no sockets?
      - jdavid 19y ago
        yeah, TCP/IP stack latency. ;-/
- jdavid 19y ago
  Java and .NET are both OO functional languages that execute code in JIT compilers, but there are many differences. .NET has stronger patterns throughout the system, you basically learn one set of patterns and it works on everything. most developers support all of the patterns. .NET has superior thread and memory management. in most tests i have seen, .NET code runs faster with less memory bulk and with better memory access models for most object calls. .NET remoting is built in, while with Java you need external 3rd party Apps. Visual Studio Blows Eclipse out of the water. I have yet to see a feature in Eclipse that was not first deployed in Visual Studio. Visual Studio Team Edition, better supports 100,000 lines of code or more in revision control than any other platform, while remaining agile. Microsoft has a long term support option if you plan to actually scale your product, Java on the other hand requires you to base your support options on the user community. If you want to get access to the hardware layer for graphics, or communication, you can use the same tool set vertical, as you can to develop the rest of your code. With Java, if you want to do hardware, you need to break out of your development tools and use different ones. .NET/ Visual Studio has framework language packages for C#, Visual Basic, Python, PHP, Ruby, C, C++, J#, JavaScript, -and if we wanted to, we could write a framework package for ActionScript3 (yes we have considered it) We love the .NET platform, but what we do not like is the server licensing fee. at $1000 a software license, we would rather amortize that cost based on uptime like a service, so that we could deploy an image on any number of computers, and pay for what we use. I have raised this concern with MS and how they do not fit well with EC2. For now we feel that MS will move along with their Novell relationship and Mono will become an extension platform for MS developers, with a service contract only.
  - icky 19y ago
    > Java and .NET are both OO functional languages You keep saying that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
    - michaelneale 19y ago
      >You keep saying that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. Where does that quote come from?
DarrenStuart 19y ago
I never got the speed of development argument. I can put together the ror blog example quicker with .net. I have found people trying to develop .net apps like Java ones and this adds needless overhead.
- nkohari 19y ago
  Rapid design is not necessarily sustainable design. The "speed of development" argument for RoR is about maintenance and flexibility rather than getting it done fast. (By day I'm a C# developer, by night a Ruby one. ;)
  - hello_moto 19y ago
    ActiveRecord and Flexible....
  - DarrenStuart 19y ago
    fair point. Wait until MVC for asp.net it looks pretty cool. http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/10/14/asp-net-mvc-framework.aspx http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/10/14/asp-net-mv...
cstejerean 19y ago
The startup where I work was started by business types but we're using Python. Although I have to admit that at times it is hard to find experienced Python developers (so we gave up on the Python part and started looking for experienced developers period. Turns out Python is pretty easy to learn). My biggest problem with ASP.NET (and the reason I would pick Java over it if I had to use one of the two) is that it only runs on Windows (I keep hearing about this Mono thing but to me that still feels like a hack).
- tx 19y ago
  Depends on how you look at it. Windows Server 2003 is not a bad server OS and properly written and deployed ASP.NET application will be able to handle TONS of requests. Two reasons: native code execution (.NET caches compiled code in memory) and very efficient threading. This thought may be unpopular but it does not make it less true. However, as a struggling one-two person startup, you probably will not want to pay crazy prices for dedicated windows hosting (Win2003 server+MSSQL). And shared Windows hosting is always crap: overloaded servers, terrible performance, etc. Basically, Windows platform is not very startup-friendly: you develop slower (thus will take you longer, i.e. you'll bleed more money) and later it will cost you more to host your app. Besides, a proper set of Visual Studio + MSDN subscription is not exactly cheap. For well-funded startups .NET makes more economic sense: easier to hire for and performs/scales well (myspace).
  - hello_moto 19y ago
    Actually the upcoming Windows Server 2008 Web Edition cost around $500 bucks. I know it still can't beat free but heh, it's better than spending thousands of dollars. SQL Server 2005 Developer Edition cost $50 bucks (SQL Dev Ed is basically Enterprise Ed with license restriction). I hope in the future MS will lower the prices for most of their stuffs.
  - mxh 19y ago
    ... but, aside from the higher tool cost, slower development time, and more expensive hosting, it's great? I don't think performance is really a reason to pick the MSFT stack; MySpace does use it, proving that it can scale, but there are many more cases of web-scale systems built on open-source tech. So that's, at best, a push. It is easier to find warm bodies for a MSFT shop than, say, a Python shop. But, as a startup, are you looking for 5 great guys, or 50 mediocre ones? And do you really think it's easier to find 5 great MSFT guys than 5 great Python (or Ruby, or Java, or even LISP/Haskell/Erlang) guys? The last point seems debatable to me, the others, less so.
falsestprophet 19y ago
d. street cred
- hello_moto 19y ago
  Lol. I agree 100% with this one, you'll get instant visitors from the RoR world + Web designers.
  - michaelneale 19y ago
    So thats 50 skint startup insiders ?

by tx 19y ago

axod 19y ago

Please don't group Java together with .NET :D

Shorel 19y ago
Why not? In a world with C++, Phyton, Ruby and Lisp both are very similar.
Goladus 19y ago
System.Console.WriteLine("Hi, I'm a .NET library function for the CLR being called in C#"); System.out.println("Hi, I'm a Java library function for Java being called in Java"); Java The Language and C# are extremely similar, and if the differences bother you that much you can use J#. Java and .NET both provide managed runtime environments. Java and .NET both provide a large library of functions for that environment. I'd say if you're going to put Java and .NET into different categories, you should have some solid reasons, so let's hear them.
- axod 19y ago
  Java and C#/C++ are very similar languages as far as I know. ASP.NET seems very similar to PHP. .NET just sounds a horrible mess. VB.NET? why would anyone touch anything that has a language 'visual' 'beginners'. Don't those two words hint at anything? Comparing Java (the language) to .NET (the system that lots of m$ languages run on) doesn't make much sense though IMHO.
  - pc 19y ago
    "C#/C++" is about as valid as "Java/JavaScript".
    - DanielBMarkham 19y ago
      Nice slogan, but fails when put to the test. C#/C++ = both OOP languages, semi-color delimited, mostly early binding, strong typing, etc. Java and JavaScript are not anywhere near as close. OOP vs prototypes, loose typing vs. strong typing, closure-functional style vs imperative style, etc.
      - nkohari 19y ago
        No offense, but you clearly have not used both languages. When you consider the platform in addition to the syntax, C# is absolutely nothing like C++. C# is managed, garbage collected, bytecode-based and JITted. Saying C++ and C# are similar is like saying that technically a unicycle and an airplane are the same because they can both help you get somewhere.
        DanielBMarkham 19y ago
        Everybody knows that Java is just C++ with the sharp edges taken off. C# is Microsoft's Java-killer. C# and C++ are directly related to each other. It's the same lineage. Where do you think you get the idea of constructors, interfaces, friends, volatile methods, etc? I understand that C# is managed, but how the runtime handles memory allocation to me just isn't the deal-killer you're making it out to be. There's lot's of ways to have managed C++ code. Third-parties have been making smart memory managers for C++ for as long as I can remember. Look -- I love C++. It's my favorite language of all, not that I'd code anything in it anymore. I've done Java, I've done Javascript (a lot of it), and I've done a lot of C#. I know the languages. C# is much closer to C++ than Java is to Javascript. You made a cute comment. I called bs on you. Get over it. Best way to get out of a hole is to stop digging.
        nkohari 19y ago
- jdavid 19y ago
  Java can not manage memory marshaling between win32 apps and managed code. In Java, you need to message pass with pipes, and its a pain. In Linux Piping is really fast, but in Windows, Piping is slow. I really like being able to code C++ and C# in the same solution, but in different projects, while being able to step through all layers of the code. Remote Debuging, and RPC calls are way better in .NET Also if you are doing XML, and Web Service calls (soap, get, post) .NET includes the functional layering and interface segmentation to access each of the protocols independently or together. In my opinion, if you want to set up some sort of transactional API, .NET has leaps and bounds better performance and professionals level tools. If you are trying to hack something together, .NET has a large learning curve, and requires disciplined programing to get any practical use out of it.
  - icky 19y ago
    > In Java, you need to message pass with pipes, and its a pain. What, no sockets?
    - jdavid 19y ago
      yeah, TCP/IP stack latency. ;-/
jdavid 19y ago
Java and .NET are both OO functional languages that execute code in JIT compilers, but there are many differences. .NET has stronger patterns throughout the system, you basically learn one set of patterns and it works on everything. most developers support all of the patterns. .NET has superior thread and memory management. in most tests i have seen, .NET code runs faster with less memory bulk and with better memory access models for most object calls. .NET remoting is built in, while with Java you need external 3rd party Apps. Visual Studio Blows Eclipse out of the water. I have yet to see a feature in Eclipse that was not first deployed in Visual Studio. Visual Studio Team Edition, better supports 100,000 lines of code or more in revision control than any other platform, while remaining agile. Microsoft has a long term support option if you plan to actually scale your product, Java on the other hand requires you to base your support options on the user community. If you want to get access to the hardware layer for graphics, or communication, you can use the same tool set vertical, as you can to develop the rest of your code. With Java, if you want to do hardware, you need to break out of your development tools and use different ones. .NET/ Visual Studio has framework language packages for C#, Visual Basic, Python, PHP, Ruby, C, C++, J#, JavaScript, -and if we wanted to, we could write a framework package for ActionScript3 (yes we have considered it) We love the .NET platform, but what we do not like is the server licensing fee. at $1000 a software license, we would rather amortize that cost based on uptime like a service, so that we could deploy an image on any number of computers, and pay for what we use. I have raised this concern with MS and how they do not fit well with EC2. For now we feel that MS will move along with their Novell relationship and Mono will become an extension platform for MS developers, with a service contract only.
- icky 19y ago
  > Java and .NET are both OO functional languages You keep saying that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
  - michaelneale 19y ago
    >You keep saying that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. Where does that quote come from?

DarrenStuart 19y ago

I never got the speed of development argument. I can put together the ror blog example quicker with .net. I have found people trying to develop .net apps like Java ones and this adds needless overhead.

nkohari 19y ago
Rapid design is not necessarily sustainable design. The "speed of development" argument for RoR is about maintenance and flexibility rather than getting it done fast. (By day I'm a C# developer, by night a Ruby one. ;)
- hello_moto 19y ago
  ActiveRecord and Flexible....
- DarrenStuart 19y ago
  fair point. Wait until MVC for asp.net it looks pretty cool. http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/10/14/asp-net-mvc-framework.aspx http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/10/14/asp-net-mv...

cstejerean 19y ago

The startup where I work was started by business types but we're using Python. Although I have to admit that at times it is hard to find experienced Python developers (so we gave up on the Python part and started looking for experienced developers period. Turns out Python is pretty easy to learn). My biggest problem with ASP.NET (and the reason I would pick Java over it if I had to use one of the two) is that it only runs on Windows (I keep hearing about this Mono thing but to me that still feels like a hack).

tx 19y ago
Depends on how you look at it. Windows Server 2003 is not a bad server OS and properly written and deployed ASP.NET application will be able to handle TONS of requests. Two reasons: native code execution (.NET caches compiled code in memory) and very efficient threading. This thought may be unpopular but it does not make it less true. However, as a struggling one-two person startup, you probably will not want to pay crazy prices for dedicated windows hosting (Win2003 server+MSSQL). And shared Windows hosting is always crap: overloaded servers, terrible performance, etc. Basically, Windows platform is not very startup-friendly: you develop slower (thus will take you longer, i.e. you'll bleed more money) and later it will cost you more to host your app. Besides, a proper set of Visual Studio + MSDN subscription is not exactly cheap. For well-funded startups .NET makes more economic sense: easier to hire for and performs/scales well (myspace).
- hello_moto 19y ago
  Actually the upcoming Windows Server 2008 Web Edition cost around $500 bucks. I know it still can't beat free but heh, it's better than spending thousands of dollars. SQL Server 2005 Developer Edition cost $50 bucks (SQL Dev Ed is basically Enterprise Ed with license restriction). I hope in the future MS will lower the prices for most of their stuffs.
- mxh 19y ago
  ... but, aside from the higher tool cost, slower development time, and more expensive hosting, it's great? I don't think performance is really a reason to pick the MSFT stack; MySpace does use it, proving that it can scale, but there are many more cases of web-scale systems built on open-source tech. So that's, at best, a push. It is easier to find warm bodies for a MSFT shop than, say, a Python shop. But, as a startup, are you looking for 5 great guys, or 50 mediocre ones? And do you really think it's easier to find 5 great MSFT guys than 5 great Python (or Ruby, or Java, or even LISP/Haskell/Erlang) guys? The last point seems debatable to me, the others, less so.

falsestprophet 19y ago

d. street cred

hello_moto 19y ago
Lol. I agree 100% with this one, you'll get instant visitors from the RoR world + Web designers.
- michaelneale 19y ago
  So thats 50 skint startup insiders ?