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"Like this guy below who has travelled here to buy two hundred 32” lcd tv’s his boss needs for the hotel bed rooms in his latest development because there is no

by pmorici 12y ago

"Like this guy below who has travelled here to buy two hundred 32” lcd tv’s his boss needs for the hotel bed rooms in his latest development because there is no place where they come from to buy such things. Many times I have shown them the price in the UK on my ipad and they have been close to jumping on a plane to make a call into an Argos store." This seems like a problem that will be solved by Bitcoin. The reason people like this can't just buy 32" LCD TV's from Amazon or Overstock right now is becausue of the payment fraud risk. Bitcoin removes that.

anigbrowl 12y ago
If you need 200 TVs you don't usually just do it with a credit card, you set up an account with a reseller. There are already mechanisms for doing this sort of thing, eg escrow accounts.
analog31 12y ago
Do you mind if I ask how? I ask as one who is still quite bewildered by the whole Bitcoin thing, but would love to better understand how it works.
- pmorici 12y ago
  Imagine you live in Nigeria and happen to be the one actual honest to god legit well to do Nigerian prince. You want to go shopping online for a iPhone with your credit card. Problem is no one in their right mind on planet earth will sell you that iPhone because the chances of a fraudulent transaction originating from Nigeria are close to 100%. With Bitcoin on the other hand when you transfer someone bitcoin that payment is as good as giving them cold hard cash there is no way to reverse that without the seller agreeing to do so so there is no risk of a charge back. The seller can ship the good and the poor guy who just wants to buy an iPhone can buy his phone w/o having to fly to a foreign country. Bitcoin is like Cash that works over the Internet. The same way email is a letter over the Internet. Same result w/o physical presence.
  - tormeh 12y ago
    Couldn't you just demand a debit card instead of a credit one? Having had the pleasure of trying to pay with an empty debit card I can confirm that it does not work.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    This problem was already solved by Western Union.
    - pmorici 12y ago
      Have you seen their fee structure?
  - analog31 12y ago
    Thanks. To me, it seems like bitcoin solves the problem of the buyer being bogus, but doesn't solve the problem of the seller being bogus. For instance the Nigerian prince might order an iPhone with bitcoins, and never see his iPhone. There's probably no such thing as a risk free commercial transaction. The next best thing is if somebody assumes the risk and charges an amount that covers the risk plus makes it worth their while.
- GregorStocks 12y ago
  Bitcoin does not support chargebacks, which moves most of the risks associated with fraud from the merchant to the customer. This means it's no longer insane for merchants to sell to places with a lot of fraud.
jedanbik 12y ago
Payment fraud risk? Honestly, I figured it was just to save money from the economies of scale.
- pmorici 12y ago
  No, if that was the case they wouldn't have gone to china, notice the article says that the genuine goods were _more_ expensive in China. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/overstock-to-allow-international-customers-to-pay-in-bitcoin/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1& http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/overstock-to-allow-in...
ww520 12y ago
Why won't direct wire transfer solve the payment problem? With a sizable order of 200 TV, the cost of wire transfer is miniscule. Unless you don't want the order to be traceable.
- Renaud 12y ago
  After doing some electronic goods trading with China, I can say that the main issue is to make sure that what you receive is what you paid for. Specs have a way of changing without you being informed. Consistency of quality is pretty random as well. So you have to make sure you inspect the goods before you take them. Also, almost all manufacturers and distributors will make you pay before at the latest at the time the goods are departing. No 60 day or 120 days credit here. You get the cash, you get the goods, most of the time. If you're a larger trading company, you can have the support needed to inspect and ensure that the goods are up-to-spec. Then there is Alibaba. Small quantities for direct sellers are usually OK (although quality varies greatly). At least you have buyer protection and the sellers are very careful about maintaining their reputation so they are usually prompt and efficient. Finding a factory for something you want to manufacture (or for large orders) can be fraught with issues, the first of which is that I'm yet to find a factory that can honestly tell me they can't do something; whatever you ask, you'll get a "yes". If you have no production experience, you're in for a ride.
  - youngmoneychina 12y ago
    Excellent comment Renaud, you know what your talking about.
- pmorici 12y ago
  Wire transfers are generally very expensive so they are only practical for very large transactions. Sure it might be acceptable if you are buying huge numbers of something but what if you are just a wealthy person that wants one or two of something. Add to that the potential expense of currency exchange etc.. etc.. It's all hugely expensive

by pmorici 12y ago

anigbrowl 12y ago

If you need 200 TVs you don't usually just do it with a credit card, you set up an account with a reseller. There are already mechanisms for doing this sort of thing, eg escrow accounts.

analog31 12y ago

Do you mind if I ask how? I ask as one who is still quite bewildered by the whole Bitcoin thing, but would love to better understand how it works.

pmorici 12y ago
Imagine you live in Nigeria and happen to be the one actual honest to god legit well to do Nigerian prince. You want to go shopping online for a iPhone with your credit card. Problem is no one in their right mind on planet earth will sell you that iPhone because the chances of a fraudulent transaction originating from Nigeria are close to 100%. With Bitcoin on the other hand when you transfer someone bitcoin that payment is as good as giving them cold hard cash there is no way to reverse that without the seller agreeing to do so so there is no risk of a charge back. The seller can ship the good and the poor guy who just wants to buy an iPhone can buy his phone w/o having to fly to a foreign country. Bitcoin is like Cash that works over the Internet. The same way email is a letter over the Internet. Same result w/o physical presence.
- tormeh 12y ago
  Couldn't you just demand a debit card instead of a credit one? Having had the pleasure of trying to pay with an empty debit card I can confirm that it does not work.
- DanBC 12y ago
  This problem was already solved by Western Union.
  - pmorici 12y ago
    Have you seen their fee structure?
- analog31 12y ago
  Thanks. To me, it seems like bitcoin solves the problem of the buyer being bogus, but doesn't solve the problem of the seller being bogus. For instance the Nigerian prince might order an iPhone with bitcoins, and never see his iPhone. There's probably no such thing as a risk free commercial transaction. The next best thing is if somebody assumes the risk and charges an amount that covers the risk plus makes it worth their while.
GregorStocks 12y ago
Bitcoin does not support chargebacks, which moves most of the risks associated with fraud from the merchant to the customer. This means it's no longer insane for merchants to sell to places with a lot of fraud.

jedanbik 12y ago

Payment fraud risk? Honestly, I figured it was just to save money from the economies of scale.

pmorici 12y ago
No, if that was the case they wouldn't have gone to china, notice the article says that the genuine goods were _more_ expensive in China. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/overstock-to-allow-international-customers-to-pay-in-bitcoin/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1& http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/overstock-to-allow-in...

ww520 12y ago

Why won't direct wire transfer solve the payment problem? With a sizable order of 200 TV, the cost of wire transfer is miniscule. Unless you don't want the order to be traceable.

Renaud 12y ago
After doing some electronic goods trading with China, I can say that the main issue is to make sure that what you receive is what you paid for. Specs have a way of changing without you being informed. Consistency of quality is pretty random as well. So you have to make sure you inspect the goods before you take them. Also, almost all manufacturers and distributors will make you pay before at the latest at the time the goods are departing. No 60 day or 120 days credit here. You get the cash, you get the goods, most of the time. If you're a larger trading company, you can have the support needed to inspect and ensure that the goods are up-to-spec. Then there is Alibaba. Small quantities for direct sellers are usually OK (although quality varies greatly). At least you have buyer protection and the sellers are very careful about maintaining their reputation so they are usually prompt and efficient. Finding a factory for something you want to manufacture (or for large orders) can be fraught with issues, the first of which is that I'm yet to find a factory that can honestly tell me they can't do something; whatever you ask, you'll get a "yes". If you have no production experience, you're in for a ride.
- youngmoneychina 12y ago
  Excellent comment Renaud, you know what your talking about.
pmorici 12y ago
Wire transfers are generally very expensive so they are only practical for very large transactions. Sure it might be acceptable if you are buying huge numbers of something but what if you are just a wealthy person that wants one or two of something. Add to that the potential expense of currency exchange etc.. etc.. It's all hugely expensive