4 ms·

I think generalized induction about "contept X" is the wrong tactic here, even though the formalization is for the sake of clarity. The specifics of this case m

I think generalized induction about "contept X" is the wrong tactic here, even though the formalization is for the sake of clarity. The specifics of this case matter. The thing is that "context X", in this case, refers to "rape culture", which at its core is a name for institutionalized systems which support and allow rape to occur. Allowing trivializations of such a term is completely out of line for a community that claims to support inclusivity and diverrsity. I understand that in this way many trivializations of many different "concepts x" could be argued to be not ok. When "concept x" refers to oppressed groups speaking abut the issues that affect them, especially if the issues are ones so violent and brutal as rape, I think this is good. Such things should not be trivialized. Organizations setting limits on what type of discussion is allowed is a good thing, and again, specifics matter. The statement, at its heart, stifles the speech of these groups by trivializing the concerns of those people who are affected by the systems termed "rape culture"( systems supporting violence against certain groups ). The fact that the transition to a more inclusive community involves prohibiting this type of speech is a given IMO, since that speech is precisely what makes for a hostile climate to non-white-guy contributors. Such statements are problematic if the community in question claims to be based on freedom and inclusivity. [Edit]: In general, I think "freedom of speech"( and the implied "freedom to be offended" ), are less important than maintaining a community climate that feels safe for its members.

4bpp 12y ago
The problem I see with your argument is that it presupposes that "rape culture" exists (and, at one point, that women are an "oppressed group"). Although especially the bracketed statement really does not square with my gut feeling regarding the definition and the intensity of the word "oppression", the problem here is more fundamentally that it appears to willfully ignore the question of who gets to decide which concepts are legitimate and which aren't and on what basis that decision should be made. If we simply say that all claims about oppressive systems are not to be questioned and to be accorded the same treatment you argue to be justified for the claim about "rape culture", we will also have to accept the reasoning that jokes at the expense of "Zionist-occupied government" theory are anti-Gentile (something which a good portion of Gentiles would be very bewildered by) and those at the expense of 9/11 truthers are anti-American; at the same time, simply saying that these are different because feminists are right and conspiracy theorists are wrong is about as convincing as the "nothing is wrong with executing murderers" argument for death penalty, which leaves the possibility of actually making a convincing argument for how we can know that feminists are right to the exclusion of everyone them being right would make it an imperative to silence (parallelling the presumable possibility of justifying the death penalty in appropriate cases by presenting an overwhelmingly reliable method for determining guilt of murder) - something which a great many people would be itching to see, if you have it. If "post-liberal" feminists think the patriarchy so powerful, I find it hard to understand why they are not more worried about the possibility of the machinery they happily advocate to be set up for their own protection being co-opted by the same and turned against them. The persecution complex of midwestern American Evangelicals demonstrates that even a group completely outgunning everyone else in terms of both numbers and sheer influence can successfully delude itself into believing that it is oppressed and in dire need of protection, and the damage they could do to the feminist cause if they got to seize the "safe space" policies in place at many university campuses and rewrite them to sanction statements that "make Christians feel unsafe" in the same way in which they currently sanction statements that "make women feel unsafe" is palpable. > Organizations setting limits on what type of discussion is allowed is a good thing In general? Now that's a statement I would really be inclined to apply the adjective "problematic" to... Regarding your position following "[Edit]:", accepting it as true still allows for two possible consequences apart from "restrict freedom of speech until everyone feels safe", namely: * trivially, to exclude the members who feel unsafe until everyone feels safe; * less trivially, to educate/ease/pressure/brainwash (whichever verb you prefer) members who feel unsafe into feeling safe. If neither of the two options is considered legitimate under any circumstance, any individual with a psychiatric disorder making them feel a constant feeling of dread would be sufficient to shut down any forum to which they manage to gain admission. Conversely, I have yet to see a comprehensive argument against even a stubborn approach along the lines of "People still feel unsafe? More brainwashing starting at an earlier age it is, then!" - something we would probably do without batting an eye if a different feeling of unsafety interfered with the social participation of a large portion of the demographic, like the hikikomori phenomenon.

4bpp 12y ago

The problem I see with your argument is that it presupposes that "rape culture" exists (and, at one point, that women are an "oppressed group"). Although especially the bracketed statement really does not square with my gut feeling regarding the definition and the intensity of the word "oppression", the problem here is more fundamentally that it appears to willfully ignore the question of who gets to decide which concepts are legitimate and which aren't and on what basis that decision should be made. If we simply say that all claims about oppressive systems are not to be questioned and to be accorded the same treatment you argue to be justified for the claim about "rape culture", we will also have to accept the reasoning that jokes at the expense of "Zionist-occupied government" theory are anti-Gentile (something which a good portion of Gentiles would be very bewildered by) and those at the expense of 9/11 truthers are anti-American; at the same time, simply saying that these are different because feminists are right and conspiracy theorists are wrong is about as convincing as the "nothing is wrong with executing murderers" argument for death penalty, which leaves the possibility of actually making a convincing argument for how we can know that feminists are right to the exclusion of everyone them being right would make it an imperative to silence (parallelling the presumable possibility of justifying the death penalty in appropriate cases by presenting an overwhelmingly reliable method for determining guilt of murder) - something which a great many people would be itching to see, if you have it. If "post-liberal" feminists think the patriarchy so powerful, I find it hard to understand why they are not more worried about the possibility of the machinery they happily advocate to be set up for their own protection being co-opted by the same and turned against them. The persecution complex of midwestern American Evangelicals demonstrates that even a group completely outgunning everyone else in terms of both numbers and sheer influence can successfully delude itself into believing that it is oppressed and in dire need of protection, and the damage they could do to the feminist cause if they got to seize the "safe space" policies in place at many university campuses and rewrite them to sanction statements that "make Christians feel unsafe" in the same way in which they currently sanction statements that "make women feel unsafe" is palpable. > Organizations setting limits on what type of discussion is allowed is a good thing In general? Now that's a statement I would really be inclined to apply the adjective "problematic" to... Regarding your position following "[Edit]:", accepting it as true still allows for two possible consequences apart from "restrict freedom of speech until everyone feels safe", namely: * trivially, to exclude the members who feel unsafe until everyone feels safe; * less trivially, to educate/ease/pressure/brainwash (whichever verb you prefer) members who feel unsafe into feeling safe. If neither of the two options is considered legitimate under any circumstance, any individual with a psychiatric disorder making them feel a constant feeling of dread would be sufficient to shut down any forum to which they manage to gain admission. Conversely, I have yet to see a comprehensive argument against even a stubborn approach along the lines of "People still feel unsafe? More brainwashing starting at an earlier age it is, then!" - something we would probably do without batting an eye if a different feeling of unsafety interfered with the social participation of a large portion of the demographic, like the hikikomori phenomenon.