4 ms·

Yup. A ~2017 year old Seneca would probably laugh at the kid he was when he wrote this. People don't like to be reminded that aging is going to stop being a thi

by staunch 12y ago

Yup. A ~2017 year old Seneca would probably laugh at the kid he was when he wrote this. People don't like to be reminded that aging is going to stop being a thing. It's too scary because all of us are going to miss the ultimate boat.

sgt101 12y ago
But if we win, how will we fit newness into the world? Old men should die, their children should be allowed a tilt at creating a better future for themselves.
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  Newness? You mean neuroplasticity allowing for people to grow new ideas based on the world around them?
  - sgt101 12y ago
    I think that extends what I meant. Children sometimes have radically different perspectives and ideas, in my experience anyway. I find working with new graduates quite sobering; when I get to the bottom of some odd idea or input I often find that there is a great deal of sense in what they say, but the cognitive dissonance between their stance and my stance sometimes prevents me from really accepting that they are right. When I "move on" they will have their day and things will change as a result. I don't know if that is good or bad, but it is new and different and I think that my ideas have not really been that successful in terms of coping with or improving the world. I think children's ability to internalize a world system is possibly an advantage now given that the world of now is sharply different from the world of the 1970's when I grew up. When they come to formulate new ideas about how to run things they may have a much more solid grasp of reality than the view of our generation.
  - VLM 12y ago
    Speaking of "neuroplasticity" the divisions in human society between people who stop thinking new thoughts around age 14 or so, vs the people who keep thinking until they die, we'll say age 80, are already very large and would get immensely larger. Everyone has anecdotes about relatives at both ends of the scale, and the scale will probably get wider over time. From an evolutionary fitness standpoint people who stop thinking are not likely to live very long so there would be pressure toward plasticity.
- jodrellblank 12y ago
  Quietly arguing in favour of genocide because your personal religion mandates it. Shameful.
  - sgt101 12y ago
    Surprised I am being down-voted for this one, I guess that mortality is something people struggle with. Equating the natural order of the world and universe (the old die, entropy increases, things change) with genocide is not a good thing to do. Genocide is the knowing murder of a race or group; the death of the old is the order of the universe.
    - jodrellblank 12y ago
      I see a difference between "the old die" which you said in this comment, and "the old should die" which you said in your previous comment. One observes a current state of the world; the other implies that you value your concept of "natural" and "change" more than you value every living human. Writing "people should die" and then "surprised I'm being down-voted for this one" ... is weird.
    - philh 12y ago
      Let's apply a reversal test: suppose we lived in a world where age doesn't kill people. Do you still think old men should die? Then they have to be killed. Do you not? Then why should they die in this world? Your ultimate values shouldn't change depending on the challenges that the universe throws at you. If people shouldn't die, and the universe says that they shall, well, the universe is a cold and uncaring place and it's our job to make it better. Also, "I guess that mortality is something people struggle with" is kind of a condescending thing to say. Like, "you're downvoting me because you're not mature enough to understand the things that I understand".
      - orangecat 12y ago
        suppose we lived in a world where age doesn't kill people. Do you still think old men should die? Not only that, do you think they should die not by being humanely euthanized when they hit MAX_AGE, but by releasing a disease that slowly cripples everyone's body and mind over the course of several decades? Death is bad, but at least one can make the case that a person doesn't suffer after they're dead. Aging is terrible for everyone.

by staunch 12y ago

sgt101 12y ago

But if we win, how will we fit newness into the world? Old men should die, their children should be allowed a tilt at creating a better future for themselves.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
Newness? You mean neuroplasticity allowing for people to grow new ideas based on the world around them?
- sgt101 12y ago
  I think that extends what I meant. Children sometimes have radically different perspectives and ideas, in my experience anyway. I find working with new graduates quite sobering; when I get to the bottom of some odd idea or input I often find that there is a great deal of sense in what they say, but the cognitive dissonance between their stance and my stance sometimes prevents me from really accepting that they are right. When I "move on" they will have their day and things will change as a result. I don't know if that is good or bad, but it is new and different and I think that my ideas have not really been that successful in terms of coping with or improving the world. I think children's ability to internalize a world system is possibly an advantage now given that the world of now is sharply different from the world of the 1970's when I grew up. When they come to formulate new ideas about how to run things they may have a much more solid grasp of reality than the view of our generation.
- VLM 12y ago
  Speaking of "neuroplasticity" the divisions in human society between people who stop thinking new thoughts around age 14 or so, vs the people who keep thinking until they die, we'll say age 80, are already very large and would get immensely larger. Everyone has anecdotes about relatives at both ends of the scale, and the scale will probably get wider over time. From an evolutionary fitness standpoint people who stop thinking are not likely to live very long so there would be pressure toward plasticity.
jodrellblank 12y ago
Quietly arguing in favour of genocide because your personal religion mandates it. Shameful.
- sgt101 12y ago
  Surprised I am being down-voted for this one, I guess that mortality is something people struggle with. Equating the natural order of the world and universe (the old die, entropy increases, things change) with genocide is not a good thing to do. Genocide is the knowing murder of a race or group; the death of the old is the order of the universe.
  - jodrellblank 12y ago
    I see a difference between "the old die" which you said in this comment, and "the old should die" which you said in your previous comment. One observes a current state of the world; the other implies that you value your concept of "natural" and "change" more than you value every living human. Writing "people should die" and then "surprised I'm being down-voted for this one" ... is weird.
  - philh 12y ago
    Let's apply a reversal test: suppose we lived in a world where age doesn't kill people. Do you still think old men should die? Then they have to be killed. Do you not? Then why should they die in this world? Your ultimate values shouldn't change depending on the challenges that the universe throws at you. If people shouldn't die, and the universe says that they shall, well, the universe is a cold and uncaring place and it's our job to make it better. Also, "I guess that mortality is something people struggle with" is kind of a condescending thing to say. Like, "you're downvoting me because you're not mature enough to understand the things that I understand".
    - orangecat 12y ago
      suppose we lived in a world where age doesn't kill people. Do you still think old men should die? Not only that, do you think they should die not by being humanely euthanized when they hit MAX_AGE, but by releasing a disease that slowly cripples everyone's body and mind over the course of several decades? Death is bad, but at least one can make the case that a person doesn't suffer after they're dead. Aging is terrible for everyone.