5 ms·

I'm conflicted, and I think the reason is- typically the police are not allowed to commit things which are crimes. They are not allowed to steal, or to murder,

I'm conflicted, and I think the reason is- typically the police are not allowed to commit things which are crimes. They are not allowed to steal, or to murder, or what have you. If Bob had been an ordinary citizen, absolutely none of it would have been illegal. Even if he was an ordinary citizen who led this woman on to get information. This kind of deception happens. Just think of the secretly gay men who have been married to women for many years, even fathered children. There are countless men who sleep with women, pretending to be someone they are not... Are there any good examples of things any citizen may do that an officer may not, that are not as cloudy and twisted as romantic relationships?

Joeboy 12y ago
The way I see it, if a rock falls off the edge of a cliff and hits your head that's just bad luck and you have to live with it. If the government pays somebody to throw a rock at your head, you have every reason to bear a grudge and to seek redress. This is a situation where the government (in the form of the Metropolitan Police) trained and paid officers to infiltrate political groups using sex and long term intimate relationships. It's a quite different situation from a man telling a woman he's an airline pilot in order to sleep with her (although that is also shitty behaviour). > Are there any good examples of things any citizen may do that an officer may not, that are not as cloudy and twisted as romantic relationships? Assuming "may do" means "may do without it being a crime", I don't think anybody's really suggested the officers involved committed any actual crime. People are taking legal action against the Metropolitan Police, but not against the officers themselves afaik.
logfromblammo 12y ago
So establishing a false identity with fraudulent intent is not a crime? With the amount of deception I saw from the article, I would allege at least rape and willful abrogation of parental responsibility, and name the Metro police as co-conspirators. You don't defend the public order by committing offenses against it. Undercover police work is already on shaky ground, what with the Schrodinger's Felon in a superimposed state of crime-noncrime until the observer appears. If you watch, inflitrate, and agitate anyone long enough, you can get enough material for the eager Richelieuvian prosecutors to put someone away. But ok, that might take a while with all the pot smoke in the minibus, so let's somehow get these hippies to trust us enough to commit some real crimes with us, so we can lock them up quickly and go home to our real lives. And let's make some of them single mothers in the process. That's just monstrous.
7952 12y ago
>> There are countless men who sleep with women, pretending to be someone they are not... I'm not a lawyer but according to this [1] deception of identity demonstrates lack of consent. [1] http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- koenigdavidmj 12y ago
  That seems to only document deception of gender identity, not other things. In Israel there is a much stronger law, but there was a bit of an uproar related to an Arab man who gained false consent by falsely saying that he was a Jew. Link: http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Court-cuts-Arab-Israeli-rape-by-deception-sentence http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Court-cuts-Arab-Israeli-r...
ZoFreX 12y ago
> If Bob had been an ordinary citizen, absolutely none of it would have been illegal. Even the identity theft, and creating fraudulent government records?

Joeboy 12y ago

The way I see it, if a rock falls off the edge of a cliff and hits your head that's just bad luck and you have to live with it. If the government pays somebody to throw a rock at your head, you have every reason to bear a grudge and to seek redress. This is a situation where the government (in the form of the Metropolitan Police) trained and paid officers to infiltrate political groups using sex and long term intimate relationships. It's a quite different situation from a man telling a woman he's an airline pilot in order to sleep with her (although that is also shitty behaviour). > Are there any good examples of things any citizen may do that an officer may not, that are not as cloudy and twisted as romantic relationships? Assuming "may do" means "may do without it being a crime", I don't think anybody's really suggested the officers involved committed any actual crime. People are taking legal action against the Metropolitan Police, but not against the officers themselves afaik.

logfromblammo 12y ago

So establishing a false identity with fraudulent intent is not a crime? With the amount of deception I saw from the article, I would allege at least rape and willful abrogation of parental responsibility, and name the Metro police as co-conspirators. You don't defend the public order by committing offenses against it. Undercover police work is already on shaky ground, what with the Schrodinger's Felon in a superimposed state of crime-noncrime until the observer appears. If you watch, inflitrate, and agitate anyone long enough, you can get enough material for the eager Richelieuvian prosecutors to put someone away. But ok, that might take a while with all the pot smoke in the minibus, so let's somehow get these hippies to trust us enough to commit some real crimes with us, so we can lock them up quickly and go home to our real lives. And let's make some of them single mothers in the process. That's just monstrous.

7952 12y ago

>> There are countless men who sleep with women, pretending to be someone they are not... I'm not a lawyer but according to this [1] deception of identity demonstrates lack of consent. [1] http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
koenigdavidmj 12y ago
That seems to only document deception of gender identity, not other things. In Israel there is a much stronger law, but there was a bit of an uproar related to an Arab man who gained false consent by falsely saying that he was a Jew. Link: http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Court-cuts-Arab-Israeli-rape-by-deception-sentence http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Court-cuts-Arab-Israeli-r...

ZoFreX 12y ago

> If Bob had been an ordinary citizen, absolutely none of it would have been illegal. Even the identity theft, and creating fraudulent government records?