4 ms·

Point of clarification: What Assange's lawyer did was describe the alleged acts. He was trying to argue that, if the complaint was true, it wasn't technically

by Lazare 12y ago

Point of clarification: What Assange's lawyer did was describe the alleged acts. He was trying to argue that, if the complaint was true, it wasn't technically rape under UK law. Unfortunately for Assange, it was very clearly rape under UK law, and the court so ruled. "Emmerson went on to provide accounts of the two encounters in question which granted — at least for the purposes of today’s hearing — the validity of Assange’s accusers’ central claims [...] Emmerson is not vouching for the accuracy of these accounts but merely offering them as summaries of the charges against his client." His lawyer was being quite careful not to say "yeah, my client had sex with a sleeping woman without her consent, but it's okay!", he was saying "if the complaint is true, and he did these things, it would still be okay". Which is lucky for Assange, because the court has ruled that it really would not be okay. :) Source: http://studentactivism.net/2011/07/12/assange-lawyer-concedes/ http://studentactivism.net/2011/07/12/assange-lawyer-concede...

contingencies 12y ago
That's a pretty crappy source. More informed parties with more understanding of the case, such as Eva Joly, one of the most famous lawyers in Europe, is on Assange's side, and described the Swedish 'minor rape' charges IIRC as being extremely particular to Sweden and nothing like rape as other countries see it, in fact they should not be called rape. She felt so strongly about the improper handling of the case that she went to Sweden visit the prosecutor to point out the tools available for moving the case forward, but Marianne Ny refused to meet with her. Similarly, "feminist icon Naomi Wolf" in a "debate with Jaclyn Friedman of Women, Action & the Media on Democracy Now!" Wolf defended Assange as a victim of political persecution: “If you are going to take the issue of rape seriously,” Wolf said, “the person who is engaging in what he thinks is consensual sex has to be told, ‘I don’t want this’ and again and again and again these women did not say, ‘this is not consensual.’ Assange was shocked when these were brought up as complaints because he had no idea that this was not a consensual situation.” I trust these people, with respect and hard won reputations to uphold, far more than some student website.
- DanBC 12y ago
  England has a variety of sexual offences laws. Even what he is alledged to have done is not rape under English law it is a serious offence under similar laws. Here's the definition of rape: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1
  - Lazare 12y ago
    According to the UK courts, it actually precisely rape: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html Basically, rape is defined as penetration, without consent, and without a reasonable belief in consent. Someone who is sleeping cannot consent, and you cannot therefore have a reasonable belief in that person's consent (if you're aware they're asleep, at any rate). Thus under UK law, an allegation of penetration of a sleeping person is an allegation of rape. (The law is the same in most US states, Canada, Australia, Scotland, NZ, and many, but not all, European countries. Even places where it doesn't count as rape, it's generally a serious crime. In Germany that would amount to an allegation of "abuse of persons unable to resist", which can carry a stiff penalty.)
    - contingencies 12y ago
      Untrue. This assertion is based on conflating the European Arrest Warrant (issued post-haste with probable US involvement) with inflated accusations with no grounding in evidence with the actual reality of the case. See http://justice4assange.com/extraditing-assange.html#ALLEGATIONS http://justice4assange.com/extraditing-assange.html#ALLEGATI... for an explanation.
- Lazare 12y ago
  The court ruled that what Assange is alleged to have done is rape under UK law. I realise that you may have a lot of respect for "feminist icon Naomi Wolf"[1], but her opinions does not represent the law. Allow me to quote from the actual legal opinion of an actual court (whose opinions, in fact, do represent the law): 'However, what is alleged here is that Mr Assange “deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state”. In this country that would amount to rape.' And that's that. UK courts ruled—twice—that Assange is alleged to have committed acts that in the UK would be rape, full stop. (Source: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html)

by Lazare 12y ago

contingencies 12y ago

That's a pretty crappy source. More informed parties with more understanding of the case, such as Eva Joly, one of the most famous lawyers in Europe, is on Assange's side, and described the Swedish 'minor rape' charges IIRC as being extremely particular to Sweden and nothing like rape as other countries see it, in fact they should not be called rape. She felt so strongly about the improper handling of the case that she went to Sweden visit the prosecutor to point out the tools available for moving the case forward, but Marianne Ny refused to meet with her. Similarly, "feminist icon Naomi Wolf" in a "debate with Jaclyn Friedman of Women, Action & the Media on Democracy Now!" Wolf defended Assange as a victim of political persecution: “If you are going to take the issue of rape seriously,” Wolf said, “the person who is engaging in what he thinks is consensual sex has to be told, ‘I don’t want this’ and again and again and again these women did not say, ‘this is not consensual.’ Assange was shocked when these were brought up as complaints because he had no idea that this was not a consensual situation.” I trust these people, with respect and hard won reputations to uphold, far more than some student website.

DanBC 12y ago
England has a variety of sexual offences laws. Even what he is alledged to have done is not rape under English law it is a serious offence under similar laws. Here's the definition of rape: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1
- Lazare 12y ago
  According to the UK courts, it actually precisely rape: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html Basically, rape is defined as penetration, without consent, and without a reasonable belief in consent. Someone who is sleeping cannot consent, and you cannot therefore have a reasonable belief in that person's consent (if you're aware they're asleep, at any rate). Thus under UK law, an allegation of penetration of a sleeping person is an allegation of rape. (The law is the same in most US states, Canada, Australia, Scotland, NZ, and many, but not all, European countries. Even places where it doesn't count as rape, it's generally a serious crime. In Germany that would amount to an allegation of "abuse of persons unable to resist", which can carry a stiff penalty.)
  - contingencies 12y ago
    Untrue. This assertion is based on conflating the European Arrest Warrant (issued post-haste with probable US involvement) with inflated accusations with no grounding in evidence with the actual reality of the case. See http://justice4assange.com/extraditing-assange.html#ALLEGATIONS http://justice4assange.com/extraditing-assange.html#ALLEGATI... for an explanation.
Lazare 12y ago
The court ruled that what Assange is alleged to have done is rape under UK law. I realise that you may have a lot of respect for "feminist icon Naomi Wolf"[1], but her opinions does not represent the law. Allow me to quote from the actual legal opinion of an actual court (whose opinions, in fact, do represent the law): 'However, what is alleged here is that Mr Assange “deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state”. In this country that would amount to rape.' And that's that. UK courts ruled—twice—that Assange is alleged to have committed acts that in the UK would be rape, full stop. (Source: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2011/5.html)