4 ms·

Isn't this changing the devil you know for one you don't? Instead of potentially having NSA spy on your org, you have potential of China and Russia doing the s

Isn't this changing the devil you know for one you don't? Instead of potentially having NSA spy on your org, you have potential of China and Russia doing the spying? Or is there solid evidence that these countries aren't engaging in the same stuff as the NSA?

oafitupa 12y ago
Engineers have to work with what they have. Do you disagree that he made the right decision? Is there solid evidence that these countries are engaging in the same stuff as the NSA?
- mikeash 12y ago
  There was plenty of solid evidence of those countries spying on US citizens long before there was solid evidence of the US spying on US citizens.
- lobotryas 12y ago
  Yes, I disagree. If there's an almost guaranteed chance that my org will be spied on, I would rather have the US do the spying. Unlike a BRICS country, at least the US has the occasional Snowden to shed light on things. The resulting scandal may do little to change the status quo, but it'll lead to a discussion and maybe a civil suit my company can win. I have never heard of a similar public leaker from Russia or China (I imagine those people just quickly get disappeared). As for BRICS country spying, we have some very solid evidence that China is engaging in cyber espionage of both US military and corporate targets.
  - smm2000 12y ago
    If you are working on US based consumer web site, spying by NSA could be much more harmful than spying by China or Russia for vast majority of users. NSA is known to provide leads to police that then reconstructed evidence to exclude any links to NSA and still arrest/harass the person. There are people who are not national security risk in US jails because of NSA (mostly drug busts). BRICS countries have zero interest whether you smoke dope in your free time and won't rat you out to local police. PS. I am not arguing that they should not be in jail. Just that NSA used semi-legal (waterboarding!=torture kind) methods to obtain initial leads.
    - ohashi 12y ago
      What if dissidents are using your service because it's outside their country of origin and they get disappeared because of it?
      - smm2000 12y ago
        As I said it's better to be located outside of country where majority of your users are. If your service targets american market, you can minimize risk to majority of your users by locating service outside of US. Dissident disappearing is mostly red herring - people disappear in US too (Guantanomo).
- ohashi 12y ago
  Lack of evidence is not proof they aren't doing it. You can still say there is risk of it and ponder how much risk that means. There's definitely some concern of Chinese hardware.
  - oafitupa 12y ago
    Can you answer the question?
Padding 12y ago
> Isn't this changing the devil you know for one you don't? I don't think so. How likely is it that China spying on you will actually impact your life, if you're living somewhere in the US or Europe? Compare this to How likely is it that the US spying on you will actually impact your life, if you're living somewhere in the US or Europe... I mean sure, this may be a relevant consideration for actual terrorists, but hardly for "regular" people that are more concerned about mundane details like their unhealthy dietary habbits being leaked to insurance companies, or their downloading of youtube videos being leaked to copyright holders.
- safeaim 12y ago
  Well, one of the risks that you face in a state-sponsored advisory is industrial espionage, and that is as likely to come from China [1] as it is coming from the NSA [2]. [1] http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/news/china-espionage-business/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/news/china-espionage-busines... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
  - Padding 12y ago
    This may just be paranoia on my part, but wouldn't being a target of industrial espionage by the Chinese make you already important/big enough to have the NSA working for rather than against you?
    - safeaim 12y ago
      Not if you're in a competing country to both US and China. The world is bigger than the US :-)

oafitupa 12y ago

Engineers have to work with what they have. Do you disagree that he made the right decision? Is there solid evidence that these countries are engaging in the same stuff as the NSA?

mikeash 12y ago
There was plenty of solid evidence of those countries spying on US citizens long before there was solid evidence of the US spying on US citizens.
lobotryas 12y ago
Yes, I disagree. If there's an almost guaranteed chance that my org will be spied on, I would rather have the US do the spying. Unlike a BRICS country, at least the US has the occasional Snowden to shed light on things. The resulting scandal may do little to change the status quo, but it'll lead to a discussion and maybe a civil suit my company can win. I have never heard of a similar public leaker from Russia or China (I imagine those people just quickly get disappeared). As for BRICS country spying, we have some very solid evidence that China is engaging in cyber espionage of both US military and corporate targets.
- smm2000 12y ago
  If you are working on US based consumer web site, spying by NSA could be much more harmful than spying by China or Russia for vast majority of users. NSA is known to provide leads to police that then reconstructed evidence to exclude any links to NSA and still arrest/harass the person. There are people who are not national security risk in US jails because of NSA (mostly drug busts). BRICS countries have zero interest whether you smoke dope in your free time and won't rat you out to local police. PS. I am not arguing that they should not be in jail. Just that NSA used semi-legal (waterboarding!=torture kind) methods to obtain initial leads.
  - ohashi 12y ago
    What if dissidents are using your service because it's outside their country of origin and they get disappeared because of it?
    - smm2000 12y ago
      As I said it's better to be located outside of country where majority of your users are. If your service targets american market, you can minimize risk to majority of your users by locating service outside of US. Dissident disappearing is mostly red herring - people disappear in US too (Guantanomo).
ohashi 12y ago
Lack of evidence is not proof they aren't doing it. You can still say there is risk of it and ponder how much risk that means. There's definitely some concern of Chinese hardware.
- oafitupa 12y ago
  Can you answer the question?

Padding 12y ago

> Isn't this changing the devil you know for one you don't? I don't think so. How likely is it that China spying on you will actually impact your life, if you're living somewhere in the US or Europe? Compare this to How likely is it that the US spying on you will actually impact your life, if you're living somewhere in the US or Europe... I mean sure, this may be a relevant consideration for actual terrorists, but hardly for "regular" people that are more concerned about mundane details like their unhealthy dietary habbits being leaked to insurance companies, or their downloading of youtube videos being leaked to copyright holders.

safeaim 12y ago
Well, one of the risks that you face in a state-sponsored advisory is industrial espionage, and that is as likely to come from China [1] as it is coming from the NSA [2]. [1] http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/news/china-espionage-business/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/news/china-espionage-busines... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
- Padding 12y ago
  This may just be paranoia on my part, but wouldn't being a target of industrial espionage by the Chinese make you already important/big enough to have the NSA working for rather than against you?
  - safeaim 12y ago
    Not if you're in a competing country to both US and China. The world is bigger than the US :-)