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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Unio... Both the extreme left and the ext

by waps 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Unio... Both the extreme left and the extreme right are very much opposed to unions. Ergo making a difference between them on that basis seems impossible. It worked on the other side of the fence as well : Nazi Germany restricted or outlawed trade and business organisation just as it did it unions. They went after the Church too. They restriced universities. They replaced or otherwise forced the management of large businesses to do their bidding too. Hell, they went after a number of soccer clubs. And the Soviets did the same. Slightly different order, with the emphasis placed slightly differently, but the same result. In general I'd say that extreme left and extreme right are both totalitarian ideologies and will not allow any form of authority or power to reside in any organisation other than their own. Left or right merely determines the order and the emphasis.

jahaja 12y ago
What is the extreme left for you? Stalinism isn't extreme left, it's just an totalitarianism promoted as socialism to gain credit. Just as north korea ain't a democracy even though they call themselves that. What I usually associate with "extreme" or far left is the "autonomous left" or similar where trade unions are certainly a fundamental part of the organisational idea.
- waps 12y ago
  This is the "but it was never implemented correctly" argument. To the rest of the world, I assure you that Soviet-style communism definitely qualifies as socialism.
  - mpyne 12y ago
    I think the "but it was never implemented correctly" socialists always seem to forget the strength of a state required to simply "implement" socialism, and then enforce it. Failing said state, it would require a very sizeable majority of the whole mass of people to simply switch over all at once, and again, somehow defend that new order from warlords and parasites.
  - jahaja 12y ago
    That isn't even a reply is it? I could definitely build a solid case with a lot of historical references to support such an argument. However I'm very doubtful that you could build a solid case that Stalinism is in fact built on the foundations/ideas of Socialism. Just as it's pretty easy to build case that North Korea is not very aligned with democratic principles. This article is from 1940 and is skeptical of Stalinism. There's alot of more, and earlier, examples of such criticism as well. But the propaganda that Stalinism is actually what socialism stands for was in the interest of both sides of the cold war, and we live with this "repeat-until-its-true" legacy today.

by waps 12y ago

jahaja 12y ago

What is the extreme left for you? Stalinism isn't extreme left, it's just an totalitarianism promoted as socialism to gain credit. Just as north korea ain't a democracy even though they call themselves that. What I usually associate with "extreme" or far left is the "autonomous left" or similar where trade unions are certainly a fundamental part of the organisational idea.

waps 12y ago
This is the "but it was never implemented correctly" argument. To the rest of the world, I assure you that Soviet-style communism definitely qualifies as socialism.
- mpyne 12y ago
  I think the "but it was never implemented correctly" socialists always seem to forget the strength of a state required to simply "implement" socialism, and then enforce it. Failing said state, it would require a very sizeable majority of the whole mass of people to simply switch over all at once, and again, somehow defend that new order from warlords and parasites.
- jahaja 12y ago
  That isn't even a reply is it? I could definitely build a solid case with a lot of historical references to support such an argument. However I'm very doubtful that you could build a solid case that Stalinism is in fact built on the foundations/ideas of Socialism. Just as it's pretty easy to build case that North Korea is not very aligned with democratic principles. This article is from 1940 and is skeptical of Stalinism. There's alot of more, and earlier, examples of such criticism as well. But the propaganda that Stalinism is actually what socialism stands for was in the interest of both sides of the cold war, and we live with this "repeat-until-its-true" legacy today.