4 ms·

That's one of the reasons I've started thinking recently that things like churches are useful in principle independent of any spiritual benefit. I've often wond

by mpyne 12y ago

That's one of the reasons I've started thinking recently that things like churches are useful in principle independent of any spiritual benefit. I've often wondered about the stories I'd occasionally read about agnostics or atheists who attend church on purpose, that hypothesis would go some way to explaining that behavior.

Dewie 12y ago
It seems like that in some cultures people need clear excuses or pretences to be together with other people (atheists going to church looks like a pretense, i.e. the church and faith itself is not interesting, but the congregation is). Then religious people might very well become more sociable and communal than non-religious people, since they have a life-long activity and community to engage with. Would it be crazy to, umm, just drop the pretence and hang out with people? To strike up a conversation with a stranger with which you have apparently no activity, institution or familial bond in common without being looked at like you're a weirdo? Though I guess human interactions are so complex and subtle that it might be a lost cause to try to drop the pretence, sometimes. But maybe some cultures do this a lot, for all I know.
- mpyne 12y ago
  Certainly some cultures need less pretense, but then being social in public in America (where the things you list simply aren't that weird) is not quite the same as being part of a long-lived communal social group. Certainly I don't think we've abandoned social groups, but I do think they've been uprooted from the geographic association they once were required to have. Even at university it's quite possible to sit away from people and just stare at your phone or computer screen for hours. Nowadays it seems you practically have to fight to form strong groups that require in-person presence and dedicated time.
  - rdtsc 12y ago
    Not having lived in such smaller tighter knit communities, some people "don't even know what they are missing" so to speak. In other words, it is a totally alien experience. The "village" though has its dark side and that is everyone is in everyone's business. That goes directly in the face of American individualism. There is also "social" and "social". That is "social" in a context of a hobby or a club. Or it is programming club, or samba dancing club, or painting class at the local art centre. One can go to those yet still keep most of their non-group-specific life private. Like for example one might attend the local ham radio club and everyone would know they how many words per minute in morse code one can type but they might not be aware that the person's wife just died and they are about to lose the house and so on. Churches and tight knit communities with all their downsides sort of force and reveal stuff at that depth and are also able to influence it (for better or for worse).
BrandonMarc 12y ago
Lots of truth to that. There's a reason many atheists have started holding their own "church" services, on Sundays. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945
rayiner 12y ago
My religious beliefs are . . . in flux, but my wife is a very committed Christian and I've started going to church with her. I have to say its pretty great. A couple of folks volunteer to watch the kids while everyone else listens to a nice service and has lunch. I think from the point of view of children it has some larger socialization benefits. Not just because there is a larger community of people keeping an eye on them, but because it can offer an alternative and potentially friendlier venue for socialization than the somewhat Darwinian environment of school.
- selmnoo 12y ago
  > My religious beliefs are . . . in flux That's.. interesting, I always thought of you as a stern atheist. May I ask you to elaborate how you came to a different position from your past (presumably) atheistic views?
  - rayiner 12y ago
    I continue to find it difficult to entertain the invocation of the supernatural. But I've come to appreciate much of the substance of Christianity beyond the metaphysics. In the past, I used to think "Christianity - metaphysics" was just "be a good person secular humanism" but it's quite different.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Remember most Christians (most anybody in any religion) are just there for the coffee. As my Minister used to say, There are pillars and there are caterpillars. We know who the pillars of our local Church are. The Caterpillars just visit on Sunday; they crawl in and they crawl out.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      There's also David Foster Wallace's take on religion, which is that you can take it or leave it, but the alternatives might "eat you alive": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122178211966454607 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122178211966454607

by mpyne 12y ago

Dewie 12y ago

It seems like that in some cultures people need clear excuses or pretences to be together with other people (atheists going to church looks like a pretense, i.e. the church and faith itself is not interesting, but the congregation is). Then religious people might very well become more sociable and communal than non-religious people, since they have a life-long activity and community to engage with. Would it be crazy to, umm, just drop the pretence and hang out with people? To strike up a conversation with a stranger with which you have apparently no activity, institution or familial bond in common without being looked at like you're a weirdo? Though I guess human interactions are so complex and subtle that it might be a lost cause to try to drop the pretence, sometimes. But maybe some cultures do this a lot, for all I know.

mpyne 12y ago
Certainly some cultures need less pretense, but then being social in public in America (where the things you list simply aren't that weird) is not quite the same as being part of a long-lived communal social group. Certainly I don't think we've abandoned social groups, but I do think they've been uprooted from the geographic association they once were required to have. Even at university it's quite possible to sit away from people and just stare at your phone or computer screen for hours. Nowadays it seems you practically have to fight to form strong groups that require in-person presence and dedicated time.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  Not having lived in such smaller tighter knit communities, some people "don't even know what they are missing" so to speak. In other words, it is a totally alien experience. The "village" though has its dark side and that is everyone is in everyone's business. That goes directly in the face of American individualism. There is also "social" and "social". That is "social" in a context of a hobby or a club. Or it is programming club, or samba dancing club, or painting class at the local art centre. One can go to those yet still keep most of their non-group-specific life private. Like for example one might attend the local ham radio club and everyone would know they how many words per minute in morse code one can type but they might not be aware that the person's wife just died and they are about to lose the house and so on. Churches and tight knit communities with all their downsides sort of force and reveal stuff at that depth and are also able to influence it (for better or for worse).

BrandonMarc 12y ago

Lots of truth to that. There's a reason many atheists have started holding their own "church" services, on Sundays. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945

rayiner 12y ago

My religious beliefs are . . . in flux, but my wife is a very committed Christian and I've started going to church with her. I have to say its pretty great. A couple of folks volunteer to watch the kids while everyone else listens to a nice service and has lunch. I think from the point of view of children it has some larger socialization benefits. Not just because there is a larger community of people keeping an eye on them, but because it can offer an alternative and potentially friendlier venue for socialization than the somewhat Darwinian environment of school.

selmnoo 12y ago
> My religious beliefs are . . . in flux That's.. interesting, I always thought of you as a stern atheist. May I ask you to elaborate how you came to a different position from your past (presumably) atheistic views?
- rayiner 12y ago
  I continue to find it difficult to entertain the invocation of the supernatural. But I've come to appreciate much of the substance of Christianity beyond the metaphysics. In the past, I used to think "Christianity - metaphysics" was just "be a good person secular humanism" but it's quite different.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Remember most Christians (most anybody in any religion) are just there for the coffee. As my Minister used to say, There are pillars and there are caterpillars. We know who the pillars of our local Church are. The Caterpillars just visit on Sunday; they crawl in and they crawl out.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    There's also David Foster Wallace's take on religion, which is that you can take it or leave it, but the alternatives might "eat you alive": http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122178211966454607 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122178211966454607