6 ms·

City of Munich Considers Switching Back From Linux to Windows (In German)

24 points by thebear 12y ago

gus_massa 12y ago
Autotranslation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sueddeutsche.de%2Fmuenchen%2Fmuenchner-stadtverwaltung-von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-1.2090611 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A...
darklajid 12y ago
While that newspaper has a decent reputation, that article is low on information and contains a lot of crap. One statement states that it took ages to provide a business mobile, because "first an external mail server needed to be provided". That's not Linux related, that's random whining from a non-technical guy.. (The following argument, complaining about a missing alternative to Outlook might have some merit, alternatives exist but aren't quite there yet imo)
thebear 12y ago
Very brief summary of the article: - Second Mayor Josef Schmid (CSU, conservative): "Every department I talk to reports user complaints. Our employees are suffering. The original decision to switch to Linux was politically motivated. We feel that Linux is not cheaper for us, because it requires a lot of software development. We're missing a program to handle email, calendar, and contacts in one place. The city will get an opinion from an independent panel of experts." - First Mayor Dieter Reiter (SPD, social democrat): "Linux software sometimes trails behind Windows software." - Sabine Nallinger (Green Party): "Data exchange with government agencies outside of Munich does not work well."
- wyager 12y ago
  Who cares if they can't do x, y, and z in the same program? That's just an arbitrary, unimportant feature they happen to be used to. Personally, I like having separate apps for separate tasks. It sounds like they're just making up variations of "we don't like doing things except the exact way we learned it".
  - darklajid 12y ago
    Your preferences aren't relevant. These people are not working in IT (for the most part). They would prefer - something they know - something that works with the world And while we can talk about the benefits of the Linux environment/free software and being independent all day, that is absolutely irrelevant for the administrative workers in they day to day jobs. Derision isn't helping here, they're just wanting an easy way to do their job - and arguably Outlook/Exchange is one of the weaker spots if you're thinking of OSS replacements (vs. LibreOffice for Office stuff, for example, which is different but comparable. A comparable mail solution is missing in my opinion).
    - wyager 12y ago
      >Your preferences aren't relevant. Thank you, I'm aware. The point is that neither are the preferences of whichever random government person they're quoting. There is no issue with Linux here; the issue is that the people complaining about Linux are too inflexible to deal with a slight change in process.
      - darklajid 12y ago
        Actually _those_ are relevant. You are judging from the side (just like me). Those people have to work with whatever their environment provides. Belittling their issues is not very helpful.
danmaz74 12y ago
It would be interesting to understand what the complainss from users actually are. The only actual problem they talk about is data exchange with the "outside world" - which can be big enough, but is no fault of Linux.
- nextw33k 12y ago
  Its probably the most pertinent point. In truth they can only be talking about OpenOffice/LibreOffice file format compatibility with MS Office. Any other EDI systems would operate at the top of the software stack.
mqsiuser 12y ago
Holy cow, Linux gained so much and Windows lost so much since they switched (in 2004). That would be so wrong to go for Windows (in 2014). Disclaimer: I am from Germany
pgeorgi 12y ago
Old news. The city council defends the LiMux system against the mayors: http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Linux-in-Muenchen-Stadtrat-verteidigt-LiMux-gegen-Buergermeister-2262506.html http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Linux-in-Muenchen-Stadtrat-... (mid-july)
ausjke 12y ago
"We're missing a program to handle email, calendar, and contacts in one place." ---I, for one, have also been looking for a nice solution here after trying some options.
- pera 12y ago
  What about Thunderbird+Lightning? I use that even when I have to use Windows.
  - darklajid 12y ago
    Not even close (I'd wish, I used to be a zealot and STILL run Linux, working for a Microsoft based shop). That's only talking client and even there it falls short. Ignoring that users are happy with one thing for everything mail/contacts/calendar/tasks: What's the editor like in TB (I know, playing devil's advocate)? Auto correction? Can you easily embed weird content and expect it to work on the other side (drag stuff from Excel..)? It sucks, but that's what happens day in and day out. And you ignore the server side. AD is really not that bad. Better than most 'virtual users on postfix' setups, if you go beyond a family or tiny team. Now you need the other server features. Calendar (w/ sharing, rights management -> AD?). Decent sync and push (IMAP IDLE is the closest you might get, I guess) for mobile clients. Delegation (i.e. 'You can write in my name') and out of office replies that don't require Joe User to write sieve scripts. I run my own setup and I am NO fan of Outlook/Exchange, but trying to replace what they do with a random selection of OSS tools will probably fail (and hence they couldn't do it in Munich).
  - ausjke 12y ago
    both thunderbird and lightning are clients, we're talking more of server here I think.
- lutusp 12y ago
  Google offers this, and synchronizing is easy, but it's not a response to the topic, problems with Linux, because anyone on any platform can use a browser and access the various Google services in the wish-list.
a3voices 12y ago
Windows is a more user friendly operating system than Linux. Obviously they should have stuck with Windows all along.
- lutusp 12y ago
  > Windows is a more user friendly operating system than Linux. As a Linux advocate, I hate admitting that this is correct. One reason is that the Linux desktop experience is too fragmented and has too many competing players. Windows avoids this by being one company with one goal. > Obviously they should have stuck with Windows all along. This may be true in hindsight, but it wasn't obvious at the planning stage. In principle, Linux is a less expensive way to run a large enterprise. But only in principle, it seems. Linux will succeed as a desktop environment only when (and if) its various factions agree on a single model and a single goal.
  - chestnut-tree 12y ago
    "Linux will succeed as a desktop environment only when (and if) its various factions agree on a single model and a single goal." Many Linux users probably don't want to see a single model. They like the choice of being able to choose from different distributions and their own desktop model. Ubuntu is probably the closest to being a consistent desktop environment and look how much grief they get from some Linux users over their UX choices. The open source model works for software, but it can't work for UX or design (at least I'm not convinced it can) because you can't design by commitee - any yet everyone wants a say in the UX. Would it have been better for Munich to have specified open document or data formats rather than the choice of software? This is what the UK government has recently done [1]. The choice of software is up to the individual departments as long as the software can read or create the open formats etc. At least this gives you the choice of switching to dfferent software without being tied to a single vendor's closed-sorce document format. [1] http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2014/07/huge-win-for-odf-lets-not-mess-it-up/index.htm http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2014/07/hug...
    - lutusp 12y ago
Htsthbjig 12y ago
Translation: MS offered Munich Windows completely free, or even offered to pay for the transition. MS probably also offered the decision makers free travel around the world, free laptops and other gear, and some under the table money for being "convinced". This was done in my University so I could only imagine what will be with a big city like this. The decision makers argument that given that Windows is "free"(first dose s free until you are hooked) and Linux takes development money (to German developers)then it is a better decision to just switch. It is quite significant that there is so many Linux mini distros in government, instead of uniting and solving the general problems Linux have on a State or even multi State. E.g Solving the program to handle mail,calendar and contacts is common for Spain, French, German and UK gobertment. Why can't they work together to solve it?
- thebear 12y ago
  I am not sure why this post begins with the header "Translation:". It is not a translation of the article.
  - jasode 12y ago
    If your comment is not a whoosh, gp is not using "translation" as "language X to language Y" but in the sense of "said vs unsaid". This usage of "translation" is a rhetorical device often to express satire or cynicism. Example: "The department will thoroughly investigate the police officers' fatal shooting of the unarmed teenager to ensure justice is upheld." TRANSLATION: "The police officers will get paid leave, possibly a vacation to Hawaii to escape the media spotlight, and then get a promotion in rank." That said, whether gp's "translation" adds any insight is questionable.
    - teach 12y ago
      But it is quite confusing to use that idiom when the original article is in a language most HNers don't speak. An actual translation from German to English is what's expected, and would have been a lot more useful.
tormeh 12y ago
Looks like the problem is primarily lack of Outlook and Office. There's nothing the Linux community can do about that. There's just not enough money around to throw at the problem. FOSS may be a global optimum, but the Microsoft ecosystem is a local one which you can't hill-climb away from.
allegory 12y ago
I can understand this to a degree. I switched about 6 months ago from a windows machine to a Mac and dumped my (broken) Lumia for a second hand iPhone 4S. I went from exchange to dovecot IMAP for email with no calendar or contact implementation all hosted by me on a Linux box on Linode. I used Mail, iCalendar and address book. About 2 weeks after setting that up I got pissed off with it as managing contacts and calendars was messy to say the least so I did some research and for a CalDAV and CardDAV server together. This never worked properly and was a bastard to integrate and manage. So I said screw all this shit, moved it all to Google Apps laboriously and bought a Moto G phone. Now someone sends me an ICS file, I can't add it to my calendar as nothing opens ICS files on the device, I keep losing contacts and everything wants my contact list. Not only that, every attachment I was sent means I had to upload the thing to Google docs and convert it before I could open it in sheets/docs. So here I sit this evening with my broken Lumia 820 and a Torx T4 replacing the screen and a fresh Office 365 account. That was the last thing that works properly for me. I imagine they'v gone through the same hell. Whilst I understand that not all workflows are like that and this is an anecdote, I appreciate what compatibity does for people and why ecosystems are persistent.
dang 12y ago
Hacker News is an English-language site. This is not to disparage content in other languages; it's just what HN is. Posts not in English typically get demoted.
- gus_massa 12y ago
  I always had this doubt. What to do with interesting original content that is not in English and don't have an official translation? Submit the original (not English) site? Submit an autotranslation? The advantage of the first option is it preserves the original site name, and prevents dupes. The advantage of the second option is that most of the user here can read English and perhaps other language, but the common denominator is English.
  - dang 12y ago
    I'm afraid we don't have a good answer to that. Autotranslation isn't good enough yet, though it's obviously better than it was.
SiVal 12y ago
There is an infrastructure beyond the usual technical sort, an infrastructure of skills, habits, and assumptions. Windows matches this infrastructure extremely well, because this infrastructure was almost entirely built on Windows over the past 30 years. People have grown accustomed to Windows, the Windows version of Office, and domain-specific custom apps that only run on Windows. Even Mac users struggle to integrate into this infrastructure, and that difficulty, plus the higher cost of Macs, is why you rarely hear a city or government agency declaring it is going all Mac. For (desktop) Linux, the situation is even worse. Unlike Mac, Linux isn't usually pre-installed, so you never seem to get things working right. Unlike Mac, there is no version--not even an old version--of MS-Office. The flip side of Linux's freedom to build anything you need is that you almost have to build everything you need, beyond the browser. Three years ago I was struggling to deal with my kids' (Silicon Valley) school system, because teachers would always send me important information in the form of MS-Word docs, and I no longer owned a copy of Office. By last year, almost all of them had switched to Google docs, and the problem is almost gone. What I expect to happen over the next decade is that the skill/habit/assumption infrastructure will turn away from desktop Windows toward cloud services usable through any browser from any platform (desktop, phone, tablet, wall screen, wearable....) Munich might need some new Windows machines during the transition, but they should probably also work on a transition to online services at the same time, after which desktop Linux will be more practical than it has been in the past.
- moepstar 12y ago
  Shifting such important and secretive things like documents to the cloud - and even an cloud of which you have no control over - will not (and probably not ever) be possible within a government institution.
fidz 12y ago
Related HN Story, 3 months ago "How Munich switched 15,000 PCs from Windows to Linux": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219
fidz 12y ago
Related HN Story, 3 months ago "How Munich switched 15,000 PCs from Windows to Linux": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219

24 points by thebear 12y ago

Autotranslation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sueddeutsche.de%2Fmuenchen%2Fmuenchner-stadtverwaltung-von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-1.2090611 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A...

darklajid 12y ago

While that newspaper has a decent reputation, that article is low on information and contains a lot of crap. One statement states that it took ages to provide a business mobile, because "first an external mail server needed to be provided". That's not Linux related, that's random whining from a non-technical guy.. (The following argument, complaining about a missing alternative to Outlook might have some merit, alternatives exist but aren't quite there yet imo)

thebear 12y ago

Very brief summary of the article: - Second Mayor Josef Schmid (CSU, conservative): "Every department I talk to reports user complaints. Our employees are suffering. The original decision to switch to Linux was politically motivated. We feel that Linux is not cheaper for us, because it requires a lot of software development. We're missing a program to handle email, calendar, and contacts in one place. The city will get an opinion from an independent panel of experts." - First Mayor Dieter Reiter (SPD, social democrat): "Linux software sometimes trails behind Windows software." - Sabine Nallinger (Green Party): "Data exchange with government agencies outside of Munich does not work well."

wyager 12y ago
Who cares if they can't do x, y, and z in the same program? That's just an arbitrary, unimportant feature they happen to be used to. Personally, I like having separate apps for separate tasks. It sounds like they're just making up variations of "we don't like doing things except the exact way we learned it".
- darklajid 12y ago
  Your preferences aren't relevant. These people are not working in IT (for the most part). They would prefer - something they know - something that works with the world And while we can talk about the benefits of the Linux environment/free software and being independent all day, that is absolutely irrelevant for the administrative workers in they day to day jobs. Derision isn't helping here, they're just wanting an easy way to do their job - and arguably Outlook/Exchange is one of the weaker spots if you're thinking of OSS replacements (vs. LibreOffice for Office stuff, for example, which is different but comparable. A comparable mail solution is missing in my opinion).
  - wyager 12y ago
    >Your preferences aren't relevant. Thank you, I'm aware. The point is that neither are the preferences of whichever random government person they're quoting. There is no issue with Linux here; the issue is that the people complaining about Linux are too inflexible to deal with a slight change in process.
    - darklajid 12y ago
      Actually _those_ are relevant. You are judging from the side (just like me). Those people have to work with whatever their environment provides. Belittling their issues is not very helpful.

danmaz74 12y ago

It would be interesting to understand what the complainss from users actually are. The only actual problem they talk about is data exchange with the "outside world" - which can be big enough, but is no fault of Linux.

nextw33k 12y ago
Its probably the most pertinent point. In truth they can only be talking about OpenOffice/LibreOffice file format compatibility with MS Office. Any other EDI systems would operate at the top of the software stack.

mqsiuser 12y ago

Holy cow, Linux gained so much and Windows lost so much since they switched (in 2004). That would be so wrong to go for Windows (in 2014). Disclaimer: I am from Germany

pgeorgi 12y ago

Old news. The city council defends the LiMux system against the mayors: http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Linux-in-Muenchen-Stadtrat-verteidigt-LiMux-gegen-Buergermeister-2262506.html http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Linux-in-Muenchen-Stadtrat-... (mid-july)

ausjke 12y ago

"We're missing a program to handle email, calendar, and contacts in one place." ---I, for one, have also been looking for a nice solution here after trying some options.

pera 12y ago
What about Thunderbird+Lightning? I use that even when I have to use Windows.
- darklajid 12y ago
  Not even close (I'd wish, I used to be a zealot and STILL run Linux, working for a Microsoft based shop). That's only talking client and even there it falls short. Ignoring that users are happy with one thing for everything mail/contacts/calendar/tasks: What's the editor like in TB (I know, playing devil's advocate)? Auto correction? Can you easily embed weird content and expect it to work on the other side (drag stuff from Excel..)? It sucks, but that's what happens day in and day out. And you ignore the server side. AD is really not that bad. Better than most 'virtual users on postfix' setups, if you go beyond a family or tiny team. Now you need the other server features. Calendar (w/ sharing, rights management -> AD?). Decent sync and push (IMAP IDLE is the closest you might get, I guess) for mobile clients. Delegation (i.e. 'You can write in my name') and out of office replies that don't require Joe User to write sieve scripts. I run my own setup and I am NO fan of Outlook/Exchange, but trying to replace what they do with a random selection of OSS tools will probably fail (and hence they couldn't do it in Munich).
- ausjke 12y ago
  both thunderbird and lightning are clients, we're talking more of server here I think.
lutusp 12y ago
Google offers this, and synchronizing is easy, but it's not a response to the topic, problems with Linux, because anyone on any platform can use a browser and access the various Google services in the wish-list.

a3voices 12y ago

Windows is a more user friendly operating system than Linux. Obviously they should have stuck with Windows all along.

lutusp 12y ago
> Windows is a more user friendly operating system than Linux. As a Linux advocate, I hate admitting that this is correct. One reason is that the Linux desktop experience is too fragmented and has too many competing players. Windows avoids this by being one company with one goal. > Obviously they should have stuck with Windows all along. This may be true in hindsight, but it wasn't obvious at the planning stage. In principle, Linux is a less expensive way to run a large enterprise. But only in principle, it seems. Linux will succeed as a desktop environment only when (and if) its various factions agree on a single model and a single goal.
- chestnut-tree 12y ago
  "Linux will succeed as a desktop environment only when (and if) its various factions agree on a single model and a single goal." Many Linux users probably don't want to see a single model. They like the choice of being able to choose from different distributions and their own desktop model. Ubuntu is probably the closest to being a consistent desktop environment and look how much grief they get from some Linux users over their UX choices. The open source model works for software, but it can't work for UX or design (at least I'm not convinced it can) because you can't design by commitee - any yet everyone wants a say in the UX. Would it have been better for Munich to have specified open document or data formats rather than the choice of software? This is what the UK government has recently done [1]. The choice of software is up to the individual departments as long as the software can read or create the open formats etc. At least this gives you the choice of switching to dfferent software without being tied to a single vendor's closed-sorce document format. [1] http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2014/07/huge-win-for-odf-lets-not-mess-it-up/index.htm http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2014/07/hug...
  - lutusp 12y ago

Htsthbjig 12y ago

Translation: MS offered Munich Windows completely free, or even offered to pay for the transition. MS probably also offered the decision makers free travel around the world, free laptops and other gear, and some under the table money for being "convinced". This was done in my University so I could only imagine what will be with a big city like this. The decision makers argument that given that Windows is "free"(first dose s free until you are hooked) and Linux takes development money (to German developers)then it is a better decision to just switch. It is quite significant that there is so many Linux mini distros in government, instead of uniting and solving the general problems Linux have on a State or even multi State. E.g Solving the program to handle mail,calendar and contacts is common for Spain, French, German and UK gobertment. Why can't they work together to solve it?

thebear 12y ago
I am not sure why this post begins with the header "Translation:". It is not a translation of the article.
- jasode 12y ago
  If your comment is not a whoosh, gp is not using "translation" as "language X to language Y" but in the sense of "said vs unsaid". This usage of "translation" is a rhetorical device often to express satire or cynicism. Example: "The department will thoroughly investigate the police officers' fatal shooting of the unarmed teenager to ensure justice is upheld." TRANSLATION: "The police officers will get paid leave, possibly a vacation to Hawaii to escape the media spotlight, and then get a promotion in rank." That said, whether gp's "translation" adds any insight is questionable.
  - teach 12y ago
    But it is quite confusing to use that idiom when the original article is in a language most HNers don't speak. An actual translation from German to English is what's expected, and would have been a lot more useful.

tormeh 12y ago

Looks like the problem is primarily lack of Outlook and Office. There's nothing the Linux community can do about that. There's just not enough money around to throw at the problem. FOSS may be a global optimum, but the Microsoft ecosystem is a local one which you can't hill-climb away from.

allegory 12y ago

I can understand this to a degree. I switched about 6 months ago from a windows machine to a Mac and dumped my (broken) Lumia for a second hand iPhone 4S. I went from exchange to dovecot IMAP for email with no calendar or contact implementation all hosted by me on a Linux box on Linode. I used Mail, iCalendar and address book. About 2 weeks after setting that up I got pissed off with it as managing contacts and calendars was messy to say the least so I did some research and for a CalDAV and CardDAV server together. This never worked properly and was a bastard to integrate and manage. So I said screw all this shit, moved it all to Google Apps laboriously and bought a Moto G phone. Now someone sends me an ICS file, I can't add it to my calendar as nothing opens ICS files on the device, I keep losing contacts and everything wants my contact list. Not only that, every attachment I was sent means I had to upload the thing to Google docs and convert it before I could open it in sheets/docs. So here I sit this evening with my broken Lumia 820 and a Torx T4 replacing the screen and a fresh Office 365 account. That was the last thing that works properly for me. I imagine they'v gone through the same hell. Whilst I understand that not all workflows are like that and this is an anecdote, I appreciate what compatibity does for people and why ecosystems are persistent.

dang 12y ago

Hacker News is an English-language site. This is not to disparage content in other languages; it's just what HN is. Posts not in English typically get demoted.

gus_massa 12y ago
I always had this doubt. What to do with interesting original content that is not in English and don't have an official translation? Submit the original (not English) site? Submit an autotranslation? The advantage of the first option is it preserves the original site name, and prevents dupes. The advantage of the second option is that most of the user here can read English and perhaps other language, but the common denominator is English.
- dang 12y ago
  I'm afraid we don't have a good answer to that. Autotranslation isn't good enough yet, though it's obviously better than it was.

SiVal 12y ago

There is an infrastructure beyond the usual technical sort, an infrastructure of skills, habits, and assumptions. Windows matches this infrastructure extremely well, because this infrastructure was almost entirely built on Windows over the past 30 years. People have grown accustomed to Windows, the Windows version of Office, and domain-specific custom apps that only run on Windows. Even Mac users struggle to integrate into this infrastructure, and that difficulty, plus the higher cost of Macs, is why you rarely hear a city or government agency declaring it is going all Mac. For (desktop) Linux, the situation is even worse. Unlike Mac, Linux isn't usually pre-installed, so you never seem to get things working right. Unlike Mac, there is no version--not even an old version--of MS-Office. The flip side of Linux's freedom to build anything you need is that you almost have to build everything you need, beyond the browser. Three years ago I was struggling to deal with my kids' (Silicon Valley) school system, because teachers would always send me important information in the form of MS-Word docs, and I no longer owned a copy of Office. By last year, almost all of them had switched to Google docs, and the problem is almost gone. What I expect to happen over the next decade is that the skill/habit/assumption infrastructure will turn away from desktop Windows toward cloud services usable through any browser from any platform (desktop, phone, tablet, wall screen, wearable....) Munich might need some new Windows machines during the transition, but they should probably also work on a transition to online services at the same time, after which desktop Linux will be more practical than it has been in the past.

moepstar 12y ago
Shifting such important and secretive things like documents to the cloud - and even an cloud of which you have no control over - will not (and probably not ever) be possible within a government institution.

fidz 12y ago

Related HN Story, 3 months ago "How Munich switched 15,000 PCs from Windows to Linux": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219

fidz 12y ago

Related HN Story, 3 months ago "How Munich switched 15,000 PCs from Windows to Linux": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720219