10 ms·

> ask to speak to your attorney > ask to speak to your lawyer > you will need an attorney to help you sort through your particular circumstance Do normal peo

by josai 12y ago

> ask to speak to your attorney > ask to speak to your lawyer > you will need an attorney to help you sort through your particular circumstance Do normal people in the US always and at all times have a lawyer on call? Especially the type of person likely to be arrested at a protest (not that there's anything wrong with that - I just doubt they're the 1%). I'm in my late thirties and certainly don't have a lawyer on standby I can call at the drop of a hat. This "advice" always seems, if not disingenuous, at least a little naive.

jambo 12y ago
I don't think so, looking around at my peers. In the US, you have the right to publicly funded counsel if you are arrested, so the advice might better be put, "Am I free to go? <no> Am I under arrest, or am I free to go? <you are under arrest> I am exercising my right not to speak with you and would like to speak with a lawyer".
- mfb 12y ago
  In the US it's not uncommon for protesters to have a lawyer, in the form of organizations like the National Lawyers Guild which offer legal support at demonstrations. Protesters typically scrawl the phone number for the NLG legal hotline on their arm, so they are able to call from jail.
- watwut 12y ago
  You can get publicly funded counsel only if you are poor enough and unable to afford own lawyer. And public defenders tend to be overworked and underfunded, so it is not like they will give you too much personal attention.
  - dannypgh 12y ago
    In my experience you'll consult with a PD at your arraignment even if you don't qualify for a PD (for everything beyond summary offenses). They will give you the good advice of staying quiet, and stand next to you before the judge, and generally they might help you ask for bail or to otherwise get out at your arraignment. If it's earlier in the arrest- e.g. at the police station- if they want to question you and you don't have a lawyer they need to get you one, and in theory this could be a PD. I don't have first hand experience with that, mostly because there's little point in the police bothering to question anyone who asks for a lawyer in 99.9% of cases. The lawyer will tell their client to not answer anything and the client should heed the advice.
- tatterdemalion 12y ago
  There's a widespread perception that once someone is arrested, there is some haste with which they are provided legal representation. But unless you have a lawyer on call, that isn't the case. You don't even have a public defender on your case until after your arraignment, which is when your bail is set.
makomk 12y ago
I know that with the recent student protests here in the UK, there was a law firm providing legal assistance for the protesters whose number was quite widely advertised. It's not that naive.
cheald 12y ago
I don't think most people do. I'm in my early 30s, though, and do - I use a service called LegalShield that I pay something like $17/mo for, and I have access to a lawyer who will do up to a certain amount of work per month covered by that fee, and then if I need more in-depth representation I can have them perform it at a discounted rate. I've used it a few times (contracts questions, mostly), but I also have a lawyer "on call" if I'm ever arrested or otherwise am in legal trouble. I realize that $17/mo isn't affordable for everyone, but it's worth it to me.
fit2rule 12y ago
I'm in my mid-40's and have learned: you should have a lawyer. Pay for legal insurance the way you pay for health insurance - both are vital to operating in the modern, western world, alas. Its a fact that our lives are fully dominated by the laws and regulations of the countries that we live in. If you don't have the time, or wherewithal, to understand all of these legalities (and few of us do, unless we've done law school), then it really pays to have an expert available to do that for you. Its unfortunate, but true: so many times, not knowing what is legal and not legal will get you into trouble - especially if you are entrepreneurial, and want to seriously have an impact on the world around you.
- jwr 12y ago
  > in the modern, western world, alas I don't know what you meant exactly by "the western world", but this advice seems to really only apply to a part of it. There are numerous legal traditions (cultures?) around the world, and not all of them require everyone to get legal advice/help. As an example, any legal culture where precedent isn't as important as in the USA is much more accessible to laypeople — you can actually read the law, understand it, and be reasonably certain that you found all the applicable laws. As another example, there are places where courts take mostly intent into account, instead of deciding based on how a comma was placed in an agreement. In these jurisdictions the best agreements are short, clear, understandable, to the point, and do not require a lawyer to draft them. I avoid mentioning specific countries that I know, for two reasons: a) knee-jerk downvoting based on opinion has recently become widespread on HN, b) there is always someone who instead of discussing the general point will find a nit to pick with a particular part of one of the examples.
Zikes 12y ago
If you do not have a preferred lawyer then in an arrest situation a public defender will be appointed to you, which will then become "your attorney" for the duration.
VikingCoder 12y ago
"If you do not have an attorney, one will be appointed to you." Also, there have recently been court cases where someone accused of a crime didn't immediately VERBALLY exercise their right to remain silent, and that fact was used as evidence. Crazy stuff. You should say essentially, "I chose to remain silent until I can speak to an attorney."
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Don't you actually have to remain silent? Its not just a game of Simon Says; anything you say can actually be used against you. The only solution is to remain totally silent.
  - VikingCoder 12y ago
    I only mildly follow this stuff, but I believe you have to verbally exercise your right.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Right; but after that, remain silent. Its not like 'exercising your right' means they have to ignore subsequent confessions.
  - dannypgh 12y ago
    No. If you're under arrest, you'll generally want to help them identify you properly (unless you don't, in which case going through the system as a John Doe [1] is an option and I know people who this worked quite well for) and state that you won't answer questions without an attorney. The act of asking for one gives you protections. Likewise, the police may read you your Miranda rights and try to get you to sign something saying you know and understand them. You should refuse to sign, stating that you won't sign anything without a lawyer. Signing it opens the door for further questions and a chance your answers can be used in court. Not signing it will generally lead to them skipping the questions, as there's little point. [1] edit: to do this you refuse to give any name. DO NOT give a false name like "John Doe" - that's merely what they'll put on the paperwork if you refuse to give a name. Giving a false name is pretty much always a bad idea. Note that generally refusing to not give your name is probable cause for arrest in many jurisdictions and I believe may even be a misdemeanor in some places. I think it's generally only a reasonable route if the arrest was clearly illegal and disclosing your real name might make you a target for other reasons (e.g. immigration status). I do know someone who wasn't a citizen who was arrested while engaging in protected first amendment activities and refused to say a single syllable (lest their accent give away their status) and they were released as a john doe at their arraignment. But yes, YMMV.
dannypgh 12y ago
You don't need to have a lawyer, or the name of a lawyer, to ask to speak to your lawyer. The act of asking for one gives you protections: it is improper for the police to question you after you've asked for one before a lawyer is there. If you've been arrested, you'll consult with a state appointed lawyer before your arraignment, but generally arraignments are purely procedural and after one you'll either be released (and you'll get a public defender or have to hire one depending on your means) or have the opportunity to hire a private one via the phone or a proxy. You ask for one because: 1. Talking to the police is almost never in your interest, and you have very little chance of recognizing when it is in your interest without assistance of counsel 2. Asking for one will stop the interrogation attempts until a lawyer is there. If they want to keep questioning you in custody it's on them, and not you, to get you a lawyer. 3. You gain protections you didn't have by asking. There is no reason not to refuse questioning without a lawyer present.
- DamnYuppie 12y ago
  Pay heed to this advice. Never consent to be questioned by an officer of the law without a lawyer if they suspect you of wrong doing. Even if you are innocent no good can come of it. I am not advocating getting a lawyer if you are a witness to a crime. Simply if they have it in their minds you have done something wrong politely tell them you will gladly answer all of their questions once you have proper legal counsel. An no this advice doesn't apply to mundane things like speeding tickets and the like.
  - dannypgh 12y ago
    Actually I think the advice does apply to mundane things like speeding tickets. If a cop pulls you over for speeding and asks "do you know how fast you were going" if you are even thinking about contesting the ticket, many answers to this question would be a mistake. Fully exerting your rights might be a little antagonistic in this situation but you may also wish to give a complete non-answer, like "Yes, but I'm sure you're going to tell me." Even if you just think you're just a witness to a crime, they might think otherwise. I'd tell people to trust their judgment but prisons are filled with people who trusted their judgment and thought that talking was OK, so clearly that's not always enough.
mikeash 12y ago
You don't need a lawyer on standby to call a lawyer at the drop of a hat. You can find one if and when you find that you need one. This isn't some "gotcha" where the police will say, well, you don't already have a lawyer on retainer so no rights for you.

by josai 12y ago

jambo 12y ago

I don't think so, looking around at my peers. In the US, you have the right to publicly funded counsel if you are arrested, so the advice might better be put, "Am I free to go? <no> Am I under arrest, or am I free to go? <you are under arrest> I am exercising my right not to speak with you and would like to speak with a lawyer".

mfb 12y ago
In the US it's not uncommon for protesters to have a lawyer, in the form of organizations like the National Lawyers Guild which offer legal support at demonstrations. Protesters typically scrawl the phone number for the NLG legal hotline on their arm, so they are able to call from jail.
watwut 12y ago
You can get publicly funded counsel only if you are poor enough and unable to afford own lawyer. And public defenders tend to be overworked and underfunded, so it is not like they will give you too much personal attention.
- dannypgh 12y ago
  In my experience you'll consult with a PD at your arraignment even if you don't qualify for a PD (for everything beyond summary offenses). They will give you the good advice of staying quiet, and stand next to you before the judge, and generally they might help you ask for bail or to otherwise get out at your arraignment. If it's earlier in the arrest- e.g. at the police station- if they want to question you and you don't have a lawyer they need to get you one, and in theory this could be a PD. I don't have first hand experience with that, mostly because there's little point in the police bothering to question anyone who asks for a lawyer in 99.9% of cases. The lawyer will tell their client to not answer anything and the client should heed the advice.
tatterdemalion 12y ago
There's a widespread perception that once someone is arrested, there is some haste with which they are provided legal representation. But unless you have a lawyer on call, that isn't the case. You don't even have a public defender on your case until after your arraignment, which is when your bail is set.

makomk 12y ago

I know that with the recent student protests here in the UK, there was a law firm providing legal assistance for the protesters whose number was quite widely advertised. It's not that naive.

cheald 12y ago

I don't think most people do. I'm in my early 30s, though, and do - I use a service called LegalShield that I pay something like $17/mo for, and I have access to a lawyer who will do up to a certain amount of work per month covered by that fee, and then if I need more in-depth representation I can have them perform it at a discounted rate. I've used it a few times (contracts questions, mostly), but I also have a lawyer "on call" if I'm ever arrested or otherwise am in legal trouble. I realize that $17/mo isn't affordable for everyone, but it's worth it to me.

fit2rule 12y ago

I'm in my mid-40's and have learned: you should have a lawyer. Pay for legal insurance the way you pay for health insurance - both are vital to operating in the modern, western world, alas. Its a fact that our lives are fully dominated by the laws and regulations of the countries that we live in. If you don't have the time, or wherewithal, to understand all of these legalities (and few of us do, unless we've done law school), then it really pays to have an expert available to do that for you. Its unfortunate, but true: so many times, not knowing what is legal and not legal will get you into trouble - especially if you are entrepreneurial, and want to seriously have an impact on the world around you.

jwr 12y ago
> in the modern, western world, alas I don't know what you meant exactly by "the western world", but this advice seems to really only apply to a part of it. There are numerous legal traditions (cultures?) around the world, and not all of them require everyone to get legal advice/help. As an example, any legal culture where precedent isn't as important as in the USA is much more accessible to laypeople — you can actually read the law, understand it, and be reasonably certain that you found all the applicable laws. As another example, there are places where courts take mostly intent into account, instead of deciding based on how a comma was placed in an agreement. In these jurisdictions the best agreements are short, clear, understandable, to the point, and do not require a lawyer to draft them. I avoid mentioning specific countries that I know, for two reasons: a) knee-jerk downvoting based on opinion has recently become widespread on HN, b) there is always someone who instead of discussing the general point will find a nit to pick with a particular part of one of the examples.

Zikes 12y ago

If you do not have a preferred lawyer then in an arrest situation a public defender will be appointed to you, which will then become "your attorney" for the duration.

VikingCoder 12y ago

"If you do not have an attorney, one will be appointed to you." Also, there have recently been court cases where someone accused of a crime didn't immediately VERBALLY exercise their right to remain silent, and that fact was used as evidence. Crazy stuff. You should say essentially, "I chose to remain silent until I can speak to an attorney."

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Don't you actually have to remain silent? Its not just a game of Simon Says; anything you say can actually be used against you. The only solution is to remain totally silent.
- VikingCoder 12y ago
  I only mildly follow this stuff, but I believe you have to verbally exercise your right.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Right; but after that, remain silent. Its not like 'exercising your right' means they have to ignore subsequent confessions.
- dannypgh 12y ago
  No. If you're under arrest, you'll generally want to help them identify you properly (unless you don't, in which case going through the system as a John Doe [1] is an option and I know people who this worked quite well for) and state that you won't answer questions without an attorney. The act of asking for one gives you protections. Likewise, the police may read you your Miranda rights and try to get you to sign something saying you know and understand them. You should refuse to sign, stating that you won't sign anything without a lawyer. Signing it opens the door for further questions and a chance your answers can be used in court. Not signing it will generally lead to them skipping the questions, as there's little point. [1] edit: to do this you refuse to give any name. DO NOT give a false name like "John Doe" - that's merely what they'll put on the paperwork if you refuse to give a name. Giving a false name is pretty much always a bad idea. Note that generally refusing to not give your name is probable cause for arrest in many jurisdictions and I believe may even be a misdemeanor in some places. I think it's generally only a reasonable route if the arrest was clearly illegal and disclosing your real name might make you a target for other reasons (e.g. immigration status). I do know someone who wasn't a citizen who was arrested while engaging in protected first amendment activities and refused to say a single syllable (lest their accent give away their status) and they were released as a john doe at their arraignment. But yes, YMMV.

dannypgh 12y ago

You don't need to have a lawyer, or the name of a lawyer, to ask to speak to your lawyer. The act of asking for one gives you protections: it is improper for the police to question you after you've asked for one before a lawyer is there. If you've been arrested, you'll consult with a state appointed lawyer before your arraignment, but generally arraignments are purely procedural and after one you'll either be released (and you'll get a public defender or have to hire one depending on your means) or have the opportunity to hire a private one via the phone or a proxy. You ask for one because: 1. Talking to the police is almost never in your interest, and you have very little chance of recognizing when it is in your interest without assistance of counsel 2. Asking for one will stop the interrogation attempts until a lawyer is there. If they want to keep questioning you in custody it's on them, and not you, to get you a lawyer. 3. You gain protections you didn't have by asking. There is no reason not to refuse questioning without a lawyer present.

DamnYuppie 12y ago
Pay heed to this advice. Never consent to be questioned by an officer of the law without a lawyer if they suspect you of wrong doing. Even if you are innocent no good can come of it. I am not advocating getting a lawyer if you are a witness to a crime. Simply if they have it in their minds you have done something wrong politely tell them you will gladly answer all of their questions once you have proper legal counsel. An no this advice doesn't apply to mundane things like speeding tickets and the like.
- dannypgh 12y ago
  Actually I think the advice does apply to mundane things like speeding tickets. If a cop pulls you over for speeding and asks "do you know how fast you were going" if you are even thinking about contesting the ticket, many answers to this question would be a mistake. Fully exerting your rights might be a little antagonistic in this situation but you may also wish to give a complete non-answer, like "Yes, but I'm sure you're going to tell me." Even if you just think you're just a witness to a crime, they might think otherwise. I'd tell people to trust their judgment but prisons are filled with people who trusted their judgment and thought that talking was OK, so clearly that's not always enough.

mikeash 12y ago

You don't need a lawyer on standby to call a lawyer at the drop of a hat. You can find one if and when you find that you need one. This isn't some "gotcha" where the police will say, well, you don't already have a lawyer on retainer so no rights for you.