6 ms·

It's not legal to get seeds from your neighbor if your neighbor is using seeds with any patented genes (a la Monsanto Soy beans). In fact, if seeds from your ne

It's not legal to get seeds from your neighbor if your neighbor is using seeds with any patented genes (a la Monsanto Soy beans). In fact, if seeds from your neighbor's field are blown over by the wind to your field, and you harvest those, you can be sued for patent infringement. Monsanto has done this and won. They even (in)famously hired Academi (nee Xe nee Blackwater) to find 'patent violators'.

freehunter 12y ago
>Monsanto has done this and won. Well that's just not true. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-five-myths-of-genetically-modified-seeds-busted http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-fi...
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  According to your link, seeds from Schmeiser's neighbor's field were blown into his field by the wind, he harvested them, and was successfully sued for patent infringement. So everything your parent comment stated was correct. There is an element omitted, which was that he harvested those seeds (in accordance with his established business practice of keeping seeds from his field) in the knowledge that they were Roundup resistant, since he had sprayed his field with Roundup to see what would happen, and what happened was some of his wheat lived. Roundup isn't patented or controlled in any way. So what would happen if I took up the hobby of growing a few patches of wheat every year and spraying them with Roundup? Over time, the magic of selection should produce Roundup-resistant wheat, which would be free of any Monsanto influence. Would I be violating Monsanto's IP? If you think I wouldn't be violating Monsanto's IP by growing, and selecting, my own Roundup-resistant wheat, take note that Schmeiser didn't do anything I didn't describe myself doing in the thought experiment.
  - freehunter 12y ago
    He wasn't sued because the seeds blew into his yard. He was sued because he collected the seeds and grew nothing but those seeds, even knowing what they were. >Schmeiser didn't do anything I didn't describe Yes he did. He didn't develop his own Roundup resistant seeds, he grabbed them from Mansanto plants. >the magic of selection It doesn't work like that. What you would end up with is years of nothing but dead plants until you get bored and forget about it. I don't want to defend Mansanto, but you're being ridiculous. This argument is repeated over and over and it's just not true.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      Sorry? That is precisely how selection works. Ever heard of herbicide-resistant weeds? Desirable crops can develop resistance the same way weeds do (that is, by coincidence). The additional "action" you ascribe to Schmeiser is purely metaphysical. In the thought experiment where I grow wheat as a hobby, I do the following: 1. Purchase, and grow, wheat seeds, not from Monsanto. 2. Spray my wheat with freely-available Roundup. 3. Harvest and replant whatever happens to survive. There's also an expected step 4. Purchase additional non-Monsanto wheat in the case where I don't get any seeds in step (3). Step (4) is just a repeat of step (1). There are two things we can say about Schmeiser: 1. Schmeiser took steps 1-3 above. 2. Schmeiser didn't do anything other than steps 1-3 above. There was reason to believe that they'd work for him faster than they would work for me. But all of his actions were unquestionably above-board. What produced the ruling against him wasn't anything he did -- it was something his neighbor did. Consider a different scenario. Schmeiser, the eccentric farmer, decides to devote a patch of his land to independently developing Roundup-resistant wheat. He does exactly what I described, seeing little success. Three years later, his neighbor starts purchasing and planting Roundup-ready wheat. Schmeiser continues to do the same thing he's been doing for three years. Is it now illegal?
      - CHY872 12y ago
        Had he been doing that, he'd probably have had a more defendable case. In reality, it's patently clear that he sprayed them with roundup to find the roundup resistant wheat that he strongly suspected was present in his field to avoid having to purchase the product.
        thaumasiotes 12y ago
        So...... He had Roundup-ready wheat in his field legally. He legally sprayed it with Roundup. He legally collected seeds from his own wheat. He legally planted seeds that he owned legitimately. But it all works out to be illegal because he's a bad person? Why would whether it's OK to do something depend on whether you've done it before?
Fishkins 12y ago
> In fact, if seeds from your neighbor's field are blown over by the wind to your field, and you harvest those, you can be sued for patent infringement I don't like Monsanto, but nothing I've read indicates this alone is sufficient to lose a lawsuit. In the case I assume you're referring to, the farmer didn't lose because harvested a few plants that had blown into his field. He lost because he then killed off his non-resistant plants with Roundup, intentionally collected the seeds from the remaining Monsanto plants, and replanted his entire field with them the next year. http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2147/index.do http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2147/index....

freehunter 12y ago

>Monsanto has done this and won. Well that's just not true. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-five-myths-of-genetically-modified-seeds-busted http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-fi...

thaumasiotes 12y ago
According to your link, seeds from Schmeiser's neighbor's field were blown into his field by the wind, he harvested them, and was successfully sued for patent infringement. So everything your parent comment stated was correct. There is an element omitted, which was that he harvested those seeds (in accordance with his established business practice of keeping seeds from his field) in the knowledge that they were Roundup resistant, since he had sprayed his field with Roundup to see what would happen, and what happened was some of his wheat lived. Roundup isn't patented or controlled in any way. So what would happen if I took up the hobby of growing a few patches of wheat every year and spraying them with Roundup? Over time, the magic of selection should produce Roundup-resistant wheat, which would be free of any Monsanto influence. Would I be violating Monsanto's IP? If you think I wouldn't be violating Monsanto's IP by growing, and selecting, my own Roundup-resistant wheat, take note that Schmeiser didn't do anything I didn't describe myself doing in the thought experiment.
- freehunter 12y ago
  He wasn't sued because the seeds blew into his yard. He was sued because he collected the seeds and grew nothing but those seeds, even knowing what they were. >Schmeiser didn't do anything I didn't describe Yes he did. He didn't develop his own Roundup resistant seeds, he grabbed them from Mansanto plants. >the magic of selection It doesn't work like that. What you would end up with is years of nothing but dead plants until you get bored and forget about it. I don't want to defend Mansanto, but you're being ridiculous. This argument is repeated over and over and it's just not true.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    Sorry? That is precisely how selection works. Ever heard of herbicide-resistant weeds? Desirable crops can develop resistance the same way weeds do (that is, by coincidence). The additional "action" you ascribe to Schmeiser is purely metaphysical. In the thought experiment where I grow wheat as a hobby, I do the following: 1. Purchase, and grow, wheat seeds, not from Monsanto. 2. Spray my wheat with freely-available Roundup. 3. Harvest and replant whatever happens to survive. There's also an expected step 4. Purchase additional non-Monsanto wheat in the case where I don't get any seeds in step (3). Step (4) is just a repeat of step (1). There are two things we can say about Schmeiser: 1. Schmeiser took steps 1-3 above. 2. Schmeiser didn't do anything other than steps 1-3 above. There was reason to believe that they'd work for him faster than they would work for me. But all of his actions were unquestionably above-board. What produced the ruling against him wasn't anything he did -- it was something his neighbor did. Consider a different scenario. Schmeiser, the eccentric farmer, decides to devote a patch of his land to independently developing Roundup-resistant wheat. He does exactly what I described, seeing little success. Three years later, his neighbor starts purchasing and planting Roundup-ready wheat. Schmeiser continues to do the same thing he's been doing for three years. Is it now illegal?
    - CHY872 12y ago
      Had he been doing that, he'd probably have had a more defendable case. In reality, it's patently clear that he sprayed them with roundup to find the roundup resistant wheat that he strongly suspected was present in his field to avoid having to purchase the product.
      - thaumasiotes 12y ago
        So...... He had Roundup-ready wheat in his field legally. He legally sprayed it with Roundup. He legally collected seeds from his own wheat. He legally planted seeds that he owned legitimately. But it all works out to be illegal because he's a bad person? Why would whether it's OK to do something depend on whether you've done it before?

Fishkins 12y ago

> In fact, if seeds from your neighbor's field are blown over by the wind to your field, and you harvest those, you can be sued for patent infringement I don't like Monsanto, but nothing I've read indicates this alone is sufficient to lose a lawsuit. In the case I assume you're referring to, the farmer didn't lose because harvested a few plants that had blown into his field. He lost because he then killed off his non-resistant plants with Roundup, intentionally collected the seeds from the remaining Monsanto plants, and replanted his entire field with them the next year. http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2147/index.do http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2147/index....