4 ms·

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an ad

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an adult to learn the language well.

brianobush 17y ago
I am going to knock this because I used it. Problem: the written part of Japanese. You read this book and learn how to talk a bit, take a plane to Japan, then bam - surrounded by the visually amazing, but daunting Kanji. The Jorden school of thought totally disregards the written and focuses on the spoken. That is fine, but the wrong path to real Japanese fluency. The best way to start learning Japanese is to get into the writing system (hiragana), Kanji (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji), grammar and start reading real Japanese. がんばって！
- rgrieselhuber 17y ago
  This is a long-standing debate. :-) I do agree that people who use this approach are behind others in reading / writing performance. Indeed, it took me awhile to catch up. But fortunately this is something you can pick up on your own fairly well. On the flip side, to be brutally honest, 99% of the people (that I've met anyway) who come through programs that focus on reading / writing sound horrible when they speak. They tend to suck at grammar, their intonation is all wrong and have a very hard time creating complex sentences. It could just be the sampling that I've interacted with but I can always tell the difference immediately between a JSL student and someone who focused on reading / writing. Why is this important? It depends on your job / life but I personally spend my most important moments interacting with people via speech, not text. I'd much rather create a strong impression in person up front. It makes all the difference.
  - brianobush 17y ago
    Agreed and yes, you must focus on the language as a spoken form and written form. So I am not advocating reading only, but Kanji must be overcome and the best time to do it is NOW. I studied Japanese for many years and always had the Kanji wall. It was daunting and hindered my progress. In the end, it made Japanese seem mysterious and not really possible for western-minds to grasp. I used RTK and got through Kanji in four months, now I focus on sentences and reading wherein I speak out loud while reading. I also speak with my family in Japanese as much as possible (this is my primary reason for studying). In the end, you must treat the language as a living language and understand all forms it is presented in. But, you already get this point, just saying it for others. :)
  - patio11 17y ago
    I also swear by JSL, and I'm practically the prototype for somebody who came through it: my Japanese ability is horrifically lopsided in that I speak like a college-educated engineer (important when you are one!) and, when forced to write without a computer, struggle like a not-too-bright 6th grader. That said, there are vanishingly few times in life when an engineer is required to handwrite anything other than their name and address, but I have to speak to people constantly. When I do, I'm consistently reminded how fortunate I am that I learned contextually appropriate Japanese, a strong foundation in grammar, and proper polite Japanese (something many American Japanese programs just abandon on the excuse "bah, that's hard and you don't really need it" -- which sounds great until we're being introduced to the mayor and you say "Yo gramps where's the crapper?"). That is not an exaggeration, by the way. I spent the next hour apologizing for her. (For students of the language: ジジ、トイレはどこ？ vs. standard Japanese トイレはどこですか？ vs. in consideration of the fact that the mayor vastly outranks both of us すみませんが、お手洗いはどちらにあるかご存知ですか？)
    - rgrieselhuber 17y ago
      Wow, ouch. That's hilarious. I share your not-too-bright-6th-grader feelings during the 1% of the time I actually have to write something with my hands. ;-)
gchucky 17y ago
Sorry, I gotta disagree with you. Learning Japanese using an antiquated romaji system (si vs shi, etc.) and not learning any kana or kanji won't get you very far. What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you? I saw Eleanor Jorden (writer of JSL) talk at Cornell, and a kid in the audience asked, "I opened a book and saw a bunch of squiggly lines!" To throw out a language's native written system is folly. We used the Genki bookset in school, and it worked pretty well.
- rgrieselhuber 17y ago
  See my other comment. I would be willing to bet that more top performers under the JSL system compared with top performers under a reading / writing focused system will end up being much more successful in careers / life in Japanese society. Japanese people take for granted that Kanji is hard and are forgiving when Westerners aren't that great at it, but it's painfully hard to listen to someone speak with non-native intonation and poor grammar.
  - brianobush 17y ago
    Actually Japanese know it is hard, and focus on it like madmen. A top Nintendo DS game for adults in Japan is a Kanji re-training game. In any case, Kanji is so visual - until I learned it many words didn't make sense to me. Knowing how to say it, but not understanding the real-underlying meaning is not fun. As far as intonation, Japanese is one of the easiest languages with regards to that. Once you get the basics it is simple, but still you must talk with others (Japanese club, co-workers, neighbors, skype, etc) and listen to real Japanese (anime, news, etc.)
    - rgrieselhuber 17y ago
      I don't meet many Westerners that think Japanese intonation is easy. :-) It's probably the most critical aspect of sounding natural when stacked up against all other factors and can make or break the tone of the conversation.
      - 17y ago

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an adult to learn the language well.

brianobush 17y ago

I am going to knock this because I used it. Problem: the written part of Japanese. You read this book and learn how to talk a bit, take a plane to Japan, then bam - surrounded by the visually amazing, but daunting Kanji. The Jorden school of thought totally disregards the written and focuses on the spoken. That is fine, but the wrong path to real Japanese fluency. The best way to start learning Japanese is to get into the writing system (hiragana), Kanji (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji), grammar and start reading real Japanese. がんばって！

rgrieselhuber 17y ago
This is a long-standing debate. :-) I do agree that people who use this approach are behind others in reading / writing performance. Indeed, it took me awhile to catch up. But fortunately this is something you can pick up on your own fairly well. On the flip side, to be brutally honest, 99% of the people (that I've met anyway) who come through programs that focus on reading / writing sound horrible when they speak. They tend to suck at grammar, their intonation is all wrong and have a very hard time creating complex sentences. It could just be the sampling that I've interacted with but I can always tell the difference immediately between a JSL student and someone who focused on reading / writing. Why is this important? It depends on your job / life but I personally spend my most important moments interacting with people via speech, not text. I'd much rather create a strong impression in person up front. It makes all the difference.
- brianobush 17y ago
  Agreed and yes, you must focus on the language as a spoken form and written form. So I am not advocating reading only, but Kanji must be overcome and the best time to do it is NOW. I studied Japanese for many years and always had the Kanji wall. It was daunting and hindered my progress. In the end, it made Japanese seem mysterious and not really possible for western-minds to grasp. I used RTK and got through Kanji in four months, now I focus on sentences and reading wherein I speak out loud while reading. I also speak with my family in Japanese as much as possible (this is my primary reason for studying). In the end, you must treat the language as a living language and understand all forms it is presented in. But, you already get this point, just saying it for others. :)
- patio11 17y ago
  I also swear by JSL, and I'm practically the prototype for somebody who came through it: my Japanese ability is horrifically lopsided in that I speak like a college-educated engineer (important when you are one!) and, when forced to write without a computer, struggle like a not-too-bright 6th grader. That said, there are vanishingly few times in life when an engineer is required to handwrite anything other than their name and address, but I have to speak to people constantly. When I do, I'm consistently reminded how fortunate I am that I learned contextually appropriate Japanese, a strong foundation in grammar, and proper polite Japanese (something many American Japanese programs just abandon on the excuse "bah, that's hard and you don't really need it" -- which sounds great until we're being introduced to the mayor and you say "Yo gramps where's the crapper?"). That is not an exaggeration, by the way. I spent the next hour apologizing for her. (For students of the language: ジジ、トイレはどこ？ vs. standard Japanese トイレはどこですか？ vs. in consideration of the fact that the mayor vastly outranks both of us すみませんが、お手洗いはどちらにあるかご存知ですか？)
  - rgrieselhuber 17y ago
    Wow, ouch. That's hilarious. I share your not-too-bright-6th-grader feelings during the 1% of the time I actually have to write something with my hands. ;-)

gchucky 17y ago

Sorry, I gotta disagree with you. Learning Japanese using an antiquated romaji system (si vs shi, etc.) and not learning any kana or kanji won't get you very far. What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you? I saw Eleanor Jorden (writer of JSL) talk at Cornell, and a kid in the audience asked, "I opened a book and saw a bunch of squiggly lines!" To throw out a language's native written system is folly. We used the Genki bookset in school, and it worked pretty well.

rgrieselhuber 17y ago
See my other comment. I would be willing to bet that more top performers under the JSL system compared with top performers under a reading / writing focused system will end up being much more successful in careers / life in Japanese society. Japanese people take for granted that Kanji is hard and are forgiving when Westerners aren't that great at it, but it's painfully hard to listen to someone speak with non-native intonation and poor grammar.
- brianobush 17y ago
  Actually Japanese know it is hard, and focus on it like madmen. A top Nintendo DS game for adults in Japan is a Kanji re-training game. In any case, Kanji is so visual - until I learned it many words didn't make sense to me. Knowing how to say it, but not understanding the real-underlying meaning is not fun. As far as intonation, Japanese is one of the easiest languages with regards to that. Once you get the basics it is simple, but still you must talk with others (Japanese club, co-workers, neighbors, skype, etc) and listen to real Japanese (anime, news, etc.)
  - rgrieselhuber 17y ago
    I don't meet many Westerners that think Japanese intonation is easy. :-) It's probably the most critical aspect of sounding natural when stacked up against all other factors and can make or break the tone of the conversation.
    - 17y ago