7 ms·

When the collectors call the debtors, can the debtor demand a paper trail to prove that the collector is the actual owner of the debt? Why should a debtor pay a

by yonran 12y ago

When the collectors call the debtors, can the debtor demand a paper trail to prove that the collector is the actual owner of the debt? Why should a debtor pay any amount of money to a random person who calls them and says they bought an old debt?

rosser 12y ago
That's one of the ways a person can "erase" consumer debt: challenge the creditor to prove the debt is legitimate. If they can't, it's supposed to be removed from one's credit report. In the case of bad debt that has passed through multiple agencies, that can be incredibly difficult to do.
delinka 12y ago
In the USA: Yes, the alleged debtor can insist on proof. The bad news: If collector mails the debtor, and the debtor doesn't respond for 30 days, the collector can report the debt to the credit reporting agencies. And we all know what a pain it is to get anything corrected on a credit report.
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  I don't understand why people freak out so much about their credit reports. I have no idea what my credit score is and don't care. I guess it's poor people who need credit to scrape by on a regular basis? If you have a lot of cash it seems like a completely empty threat. The bank is not going to care about your $400 unpaid comcast bill when writing you a mortgage. People who have declared bankruptcy twice are getting low rates. Tell the collectors to fuck off and go ahead and tell experian. I got a $1200 medical bill, about half of which was BS. I sent a certified letter disputing the invalid charges. I never got a reply, so I never paid. I started getting calls from a collector. I blocked the numbers, end of story. I similarly never paid some bullshit charge from a landlord. These unpaid "debts" have never impacted me in the slightest. If someone is trying to screw you, just don't pay. I don't understand why people are such cowards about it.
  - pavel_lishin 12y ago
    > The bank is not going to care about your $400 unpaid comcast bill when writing you a mortgage. [citation needed] Sure, a single unpaid bill won't hurt you, but that's because it won't hurt your credit score much. If your credit score is low enough, your bank may still give you a loan to buy a house, but will demand a lot more money up front and charge you a much higher interest rate. If you can buy a house for cash, it might not matter, but there are plenty of non-"poor people" who can't just drop a quarter million dollars off in a suitcase.
    - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
      I am telling you that people with multiple bankruptcies are getting the same rates on mortgages. It just doesn't matter like you think it does if you have a solid income and the down payment. The credit score is this bizarre hollow threat that has middle class people terrified into submission in many situations where they shouldn't submit.
      - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
        Until they try to get a phone contract, or a broadband contract, or even an electricity supply they can pay from a bank account. I know people who have had problems with all of the above because of poor credit. I agree that the credit industry relies on extortion. I also know for a fact that some debt collectors act as front men for 'legit' banks and credit card companies who use them to extort extra interest from written-off debt. So they get a double profit - a tax write-off, and some or all of the principal back, with interest. The lenders should - and I guess do - run actuarial models which give them a good idea what current and future default rates are. I know there's at least one credit card company in the UK that deliberately lends to people with poor credit - not because it's run by nice people, but because it knows it can maximise profit by taking defaulters to court and foreclosing on their houses. It's a vile, despicable business run by failed human beings.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    This is the worst possible advice a person could give. Collectors can and will go to court to get a Judgement (capital-J), which allows them to garnish wages (among other things) and in some cases is actually worse than declaring bankruptcy. "If you have a lot of cash" speaks volumes about where you're coming from, though. Congratulations on being one of the very privileged few in this country who can afford to do what you suggest. The vast majority of the rest simply cannot.
saryant 12y ago
You can demand a validation notice under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act: http://www.consumerfinance.gov/askcfpb/1699/how-can-i-verify-whether-or-not-debt-collector-legitimate.html http://www.consumerfinance.gov/askcfpb/1699/how-can-i-verify...
dbarlett 12y ago
patio11's guide to doing exactly that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7135833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7135833
- dlhavema 12y ago
  thanks, that was a good post to read, i also like the comments about the fact that you should really actually pay your debt when it is legitimate. I'm all for going after the unscrupulous collectors, but if you owe the debt.. pay it off...
rondon2 12y ago
Yes, and you can tell them to never contact you again in any way. Tell them that you refute all of the debt and will sue them if they file inaccurate information with a credit agency. I did that two years ago when a debt was incorrectly reported against me and I never heard from anyone again and it never showed up on my credit report. I'm not sure what would happen if they could prove the debt was accurate.
njharman 12y ago
> should a debtor pay any amount of money to a random person No. Debt is not a crime in the USA. And it is generally more profitable for collectors to sell your debt on to the next collector than to take any sort of civil legal action against you. Some exceptions include IRS and Student Loans. As the article indicated, the best reaction (assuming you don't intend to pay) is to hang up.
mindslight 12y ago
That's what it really comes down to. At the end of the day, receiving a call from a "debt collector" is no different than receiving a call from "Windows Support" or "Oil Fund of Nigeria" (or even sweepstakes / political campaigns). When enough seemingly-personal details match, gullible people get tricked into sending money. The only thing that solves this problem is for people to stop entertaining unsolicited calls of any form. How much are VOIP rates these days? Last time I looked, it took something like $50 to leave a short message for everyone in a phone prefix (10 kilopeople). In the case that one possibly does have an unpaid debt and wants to resolve it, then call up the original creditor and follow the debt's legitimate path from the source. And when you finally have someone to pay, insist on written documentation from every party in the chain, absolving you of the debt.
lmkg 12y ago
On the ground, a large portion of (consumer) debt collection is based on pulling fast ones. The people in debt are not aware of their rights and protects, and the debt collectors deceive, sometimes stretching the truth and sometimes outright lying. Threatening with prison sentences and even posing as cops are mentioned in the linked article, even though one is a fiction and the other an outright felony. So really, your question "why should a debtor pay...?" is always answered by "the collector convinces them to." Giving the consumer rights and protections is, at this point, insufficient. Their current rights and protections are not being exercised, due to ignorance. That's something that needs to be fixed.

by yonran 12y ago

rosser 12y ago

That's one of the ways a person can "erase" consumer debt: challenge the creditor to prove the debt is legitimate. If they can't, it's supposed to be removed from one's credit report. In the case of bad debt that has passed through multiple agencies, that can be incredibly difficult to do.

delinka 12y ago

In the USA: Yes, the alleged debtor can insist on proof. The bad news: If collector mails the debtor, and the debtor doesn't respond for 30 days, the collector can report the debt to the credit reporting agencies. And we all know what a pain it is to get anything corrected on a credit report.

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
I don't understand why people freak out so much about their credit reports. I have no idea what my credit score is and don't care. I guess it's poor people who need credit to scrape by on a regular basis? If you have a lot of cash it seems like a completely empty threat. The bank is not going to care about your $400 unpaid comcast bill when writing you a mortgage. People who have declared bankruptcy twice are getting low rates. Tell the collectors to fuck off and go ahead and tell experian. I got a $1200 medical bill, about half of which was BS. I sent a certified letter disputing the invalid charges. I never got a reply, so I never paid. I started getting calls from a collector. I blocked the numbers, end of story. I similarly never paid some bullshit charge from a landlord. These unpaid "debts" have never impacted me in the slightest. If someone is trying to screw you, just don't pay. I don't understand why people are such cowards about it.
- pavel_lishin 12y ago
  > The bank is not going to care about your $400 unpaid comcast bill when writing you a mortgage. [citation needed] Sure, a single unpaid bill won't hurt you, but that's because it won't hurt your credit score much. If your credit score is low enough, your bank may still give you a loan to buy a house, but will demand a lot more money up front and charge you a much higher interest rate. If you can buy a house for cash, it might not matter, but there are plenty of non-"poor people" who can't just drop a quarter million dollars off in a suitcase.
  - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
    I am telling you that people with multiple bankruptcies are getting the same rates on mortgages. It just doesn't matter like you think it does if you have a solid income and the down payment. The credit score is this bizarre hollow threat that has middle class people terrified into submission in many situations where they shouldn't submit.
    - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
      Until they try to get a phone contract, or a broadband contract, or even an electricity supply they can pay from a bank account. I know people who have had problems with all of the above because of poor credit. I agree that the credit industry relies on extortion. I also know for a fact that some debt collectors act as front men for 'legit' banks and credit card companies who use them to extort extra interest from written-off debt. So they get a double profit - a tax write-off, and some or all of the principal back, with interest. The lenders should - and I guess do - run actuarial models which give them a good idea what current and future default rates are. I know there's at least one credit card company in the UK that deliberately lends to people with poor credit - not because it's run by nice people, but because it knows it can maximise profit by taking defaulters to court and foreclosing on their houses. It's a vile, despicable business run by failed human beings.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  This is the worst possible advice a person could give. Collectors can and will go to court to get a Judgement (capital-J), which allows them to garnish wages (among other things) and in some cases is actually worse than declaring bankruptcy. "If you have a lot of cash" speaks volumes about where you're coming from, though. Congratulations on being one of the very privileged few in this country who can afford to do what you suggest. The vast majority of the rest simply cannot.

saryant 12y ago

You can demand a validation notice under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act: http://www.consumerfinance.gov/askcfpb/1699/how-can-i-verify-whether-or-not-debt-collector-legitimate.html http://www.consumerfinance.gov/askcfpb/1699/how-can-i-verify...

dbarlett 12y ago

patio11's guide to doing exactly that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7135833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7135833

dlhavema 12y ago
thanks, that was a good post to read, i also like the comments about the fact that you should really actually pay your debt when it is legitimate. I'm all for going after the unscrupulous collectors, but if you owe the debt.. pay it off...

rondon2 12y ago

Yes, and you can tell them to never contact you again in any way. Tell them that you refute all of the debt and will sue them if they file inaccurate information with a credit agency. I did that two years ago when a debt was incorrectly reported against me and I never heard from anyone again and it never showed up on my credit report. I'm not sure what would happen if they could prove the debt was accurate.

njharman 12y ago

> should a debtor pay any amount of money to a random person No. Debt is not a crime in the USA. And it is generally more profitable for collectors to sell your debt on to the next collector than to take any sort of civil legal action against you. Some exceptions include IRS and Student Loans. As the article indicated, the best reaction (assuming you don't intend to pay) is to hang up.

mindslight 12y ago

That's what it really comes down to. At the end of the day, receiving a call from a "debt collector" is no different than receiving a call from "Windows Support" or "Oil Fund of Nigeria" (or even sweepstakes / political campaigns). When enough seemingly-personal details match, gullible people get tricked into sending money. The only thing that solves this problem is for people to stop entertaining unsolicited calls of any form. How much are VOIP rates these days? Last time I looked, it took something like $50 to leave a short message for everyone in a phone prefix (10 kilopeople). In the case that one possibly does have an unpaid debt and wants to resolve it, then call up the original creditor and follow the debt's legitimate path from the source. And when you finally have someone to pay, insist on written documentation from every party in the chain, absolving you of the debt.

lmkg 12y ago

On the ground, a large portion of (consumer) debt collection is based on pulling fast ones. The people in debt are not aware of their rights and protects, and the debt collectors deceive, sometimes stretching the truth and sometimes outright lying. Threatening with prison sentences and even posing as cops are mentioned in the linked article, even though one is a fiction and the other an outright felony. So really, your question "why should a debtor pay...?" is always answered by "the collector convinces them to." Giving the consumer rights and protections is, at this point, insufficient. Their current rights and protections are not being exercised, due to ignorance. That's something that needs to be fixed.