5 ms·

My experience with the tech scene in the UK leads me to believe that it is the class system which has to be broached in order for this to be broken wide open.

by ibisum 12y ago

My experience with the tech scene in the UK leads me to believe that it is the class system which has to be broached in order for this to be broken wide open. Too often in English society clear class division is used to keep people out of touch with each other - I saw very clear examples of this in the hackerspace scene, wherein I noticed with great dismay the typical 'sterotype-casting' of individuals, whose technological prowess was not insignificant, working against them. The idea of "dirty student techies stinking up the lab" was far too prevalent - even in the hackerspace scene. British culture takes too much pride in its classist attitudes, as embodied in much of its culture, and I think this definitely works against any effort to build a broader community. Generally, I'd hope that the 'tech classes' rapidly dissuade themselves of any of the so-called virtues of British classism, but this isn't something thats necessarily on the table. Too often, bigotry and prejudice gets in the way of technological progress; this is very much the case, in my experience, within the UK tech sector.

simonbarker87 12y ago
I can certainly say that I have seen very little of what you describe in the UK tech scene at least certainly not up in the North East where I am - perhaps London is different but I can't believe it is that different. And as far as "dirty students sinking up the lab goes", this is more likely an isolated case rather than the prevailing norm in my experience.
- m0a0t0 12y ago
  It's rarely seen in normal society as well. I really don't understand where this person is coming from.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Really I have seen this attitude recently in a FTSE 100 company and I am sure it was a factor in some of the many multi million pound fuckups they had.
    - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
      It's a huge factor in the UK's tradition of multi-million pound fuckups. There's a definite bias against people, especially clever people, who get stuff done. You're not supposed to do that here - you're supposed to get on by knowing the right people, talking a good game, and being above it all because of your social connections and money. Actual hands-on development work is for the little people. Occasionally one needs to say important-sounding things in public and hustle a little. But that's as practical as it gets. The irony is that the UK has world-class engineering talent, and a long history of real innovation. But the UK is the only country to have had - for example - its own working satellite launch platform, and thrown it away to save money. We genuinely have some of the worst political and business "leadership" in the developed world.
  - ibisum 12y ago
    Did you, by chance, pay for your own education?
    - m0a0t0 12y ago
      No. State school. Shit area.
- ibisum 12y ago
  I think that the UK is still considered the most classist country in Europe.. to an outsider, the confusing arrays of 'types of people' that you would encounter during a trip to the UK, as described by its denizens, lends credence to this view. "Don't talk to that chav, mate!", or "yes, she's an upper-class type, went to school so-and-so", and "well, you're an engineer .. how very working class of you .." are all statements I have encountered with random people on the street during my brief visits to the UK, and it was quite unnerving just how ingrained this mode of thinking is in the populace. British TV seems to be nothing but a war of the classes. So I'm not sure you'd understand, unless you left for a while and came back. The British have a reputation for it - this can't be because the rest of the world hates Britain for some reason (there are legitimate reasons), but has to have some bearing in the truth of the circumstance. Classism is a very real thing in the UK - especially as a result of its education system, and in spite of many attempts at reform. EDIT: An interesting article on the subject: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5165594/Britains-class-system-alive-and-well-claims-research.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5165594/Britains-clas... And here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303333/Great-British-Class-Survey-reveals-UK-7-social-classes-Are-precariat-new-affluent-worker-elite.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303333/Great-Britis... .. and more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_... .. and well, this pretty much clinches it - the UK is a classist society: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22007058 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22007058
  - simonbarker87 12y ago
    I think class and socioeconomic group get seen as the same thing but aren't. Class implies some level of inheritance, you got X because your parents or great-grandparents did Y. Socioeconomic group is something that is more dependent on your current situation - I remember taking the "test" that the BBC had when those articles came out. I took the test a few times changing my answers based on where I was a few years ago, where I am now, and where I hope my career takes me and also on my mood (sometimes I like X sometimes Y) I managed to span 5 of those 7.
  - lclarkmichalek 12y ago
    Yeah, no idea what you're talking about. I'll acknowledge that I'm white, male and come from a middle class background, so yeah, pretty privileged. But when I look at who gets "stick" for their background, it's pretty universally people who come from money. Now, that's not to say that there isn't jealousy relating to upbringing; I am the product of a state school, so I am jealous of grammar/scholarship kids, and generally dismissive of private/public school kids. And schooling is significant; every September the Oxbridge recruiters begin the arduous task of trying to get more state school applicants, and that disparity does manifest itself later on in life. However, it is never explicit. Someone saying "how very working class of you" is not something that would happen. Hell, I'd consider that person uncultured for saying that. If you really want to talk about British culture's reputation, then the first thing you should talk about is not acknowledging things, responding in a passive (aggressive) manner, maybe looking down your nose, but never ever confronting anyone. Also, I really wonder how much British culture matters in the tech scene. I'm in London, so that probably changes my experiences, but at my start up, we have 4 Italian employees, 1 Swiss guy, and me, the sole "British" member (though half my family is Polish, so go figure). The tech scene in London is incredibly diverse, and at least in my experience, British culture is pretty far from universally prevalent.
walshemj 12y ago
Quite all of the science and engineering roles are still considered oily and lower class. Look at the major disparity in wages and status for a chartered engineer and a GP (family doctor) or a barrister. The no2 at Martelsham (Uk's bell labs) wife was once asked what sort of car her husband worked on when she mentioned to some one who she met that he was an engineer.

by ibisum 12y ago

simonbarker87 12y ago

I can certainly say that I have seen very little of what you describe in the UK tech scene at least certainly not up in the North East where I am - perhaps London is different but I can't believe it is that different. And as far as "dirty students sinking up the lab goes", this is more likely an isolated case rather than the prevailing norm in my experience.

m0a0t0 12y ago
It's rarely seen in normal society as well. I really don't understand where this person is coming from.
- walshemj 12y ago
  Really I have seen this attitude recently in a FTSE 100 company and I am sure it was a factor in some of the many multi million pound fuckups they had.
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    It's a huge factor in the UK's tradition of multi-million pound fuckups. There's a definite bias against people, especially clever people, who get stuff done. You're not supposed to do that here - you're supposed to get on by knowing the right people, talking a good game, and being above it all because of your social connections and money. Actual hands-on development work is for the little people. Occasionally one needs to say important-sounding things in public and hustle a little. But that's as practical as it gets. The irony is that the UK has world-class engineering talent, and a long history of real innovation. But the UK is the only country to have had - for example - its own working satellite launch platform, and thrown it away to save money. We genuinely have some of the worst political and business "leadership" in the developed world.
- ibisum 12y ago
  Did you, by chance, pay for your own education?
  - m0a0t0 12y ago
    No. State school. Shit area.
ibisum 12y ago
I think that the UK is still considered the most classist country in Europe.. to an outsider, the confusing arrays of 'types of people' that you would encounter during a trip to the UK, as described by its denizens, lends credence to this view. "Don't talk to that chav, mate!", or "yes, she's an upper-class type, went to school so-and-so", and "well, you're an engineer .. how very working class of you .." are all statements I have encountered with random people on the street during my brief visits to the UK, and it was quite unnerving just how ingrained this mode of thinking is in the populace. British TV seems to be nothing but a war of the classes. So I'm not sure you'd understand, unless you left for a while and came back. The British have a reputation for it - this can't be because the rest of the world hates Britain for some reason (there are legitimate reasons), but has to have some bearing in the truth of the circumstance. Classism is a very real thing in the UK - especially as a result of its education system, and in spite of many attempts at reform. EDIT: An interesting article on the subject: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5165594/Britains-class-system-alive-and-well-claims-research.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5165594/Britains-clas... And here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303333/Great-British-Class-Survey-reveals-UK-7-social-classes-Are-precariat-new-affluent-worker-elite.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303333/Great-Britis... .. and more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_... .. and well, this pretty much clinches it - the UK is a classist society: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22007058 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22007058
- simonbarker87 12y ago
  I think class and socioeconomic group get seen as the same thing but aren't. Class implies some level of inheritance, you got X because your parents or great-grandparents did Y. Socioeconomic group is something that is more dependent on your current situation - I remember taking the "test" that the BBC had when those articles came out. I took the test a few times changing my answers based on where I was a few years ago, where I am now, and where I hope my career takes me and also on my mood (sometimes I like X sometimes Y) I managed to span 5 of those 7.
- lclarkmichalek 12y ago
  Yeah, no idea what you're talking about. I'll acknowledge that I'm white, male and come from a middle class background, so yeah, pretty privileged. But when I look at who gets "stick" for their background, it's pretty universally people who come from money. Now, that's not to say that there isn't jealousy relating to upbringing; I am the product of a state school, so I am jealous of grammar/scholarship kids, and generally dismissive of private/public school kids. And schooling is significant; every September the Oxbridge recruiters begin the arduous task of trying to get more state school applicants, and that disparity does manifest itself later on in life. However, it is never explicit. Someone saying "how very working class of you" is not something that would happen. Hell, I'd consider that person uncultured for saying that. If you really want to talk about British culture's reputation, then the first thing you should talk about is not acknowledging things, responding in a passive (aggressive) manner, maybe looking down your nose, but never ever confronting anyone. Also, I really wonder how much British culture matters in the tech scene. I'm in London, so that probably changes my experiences, but at my start up, we have 4 Italian employees, 1 Swiss guy, and me, the sole "British" member (though half my family is Polish, so go figure). The tech scene in London is incredibly diverse, and at least in my experience, British culture is pretty far from universally prevalent.

walshemj 12y ago

Quite all of the science and engineering roles are still considered oily and lower class. Look at the major disparity in wages and status for a chartered engineer and a GP (family doctor) or a barrister. The no2 at Martelsham (Uk's bell labs) wife was once asked what sort of car her husband worked on when she mentioned to some one who she met that he was an engineer.