6 ms·

Since getting a law degree here (Denmark) is tuition-free, and the incoming class is regulated to be approximately in line with the annual demand for new lawyer

Since getting a law degree here (Denmark) is tuition-free, and the incoming class is regulated to be approximately in line with the annual demand for new lawyers, everything in this article reads like bizarro-land. Yeah, it would be a mess if students paid for educations out of pocket, and also were the ones who decided how many people were needed in a given field (a field in which they did not as of yet have any expertise). That does sound like a good recipe for a bunch of people in debt not able to get jobs. Here is a solution: don't do that.

omegaham 12y ago
The result of that would be similar to medical school in the US - a very small percentage of those who apply can get in. I think it's what the profession needs, but good luck convincing the BigLaw companies and law schools to go along with you. "Well yeah, the legal profession is inundated with unemployed kids in debt up to their eyeballs. That's what makes it so great!"
- jessaustin 12y ago
  Since most of us will only ever see medical care from the patient's perspective, it might surprise us that many physicians consider the medical profession to have the same problem, just not yet to the same degree as the legal profession. Of course the externalities of surplus lawyers are much worse for society than the externalities of surplus physicians.
  - robryk 12y ago
    > Of course the externalities of surplus lawyers are much worse for society than the externalities of surplus physicians. Would you care to explain why? My guess is that you mean that a surplus of lawyers can cause additional demand for lawyers, which can't happen for physicians. Do I understand you correctly?
    - ufmace 12y ago
      I suppose if you have too many lawyers and not enough jobs for them, some will run around filing frivolous lawsuits that the counterparty will have to hire more lawyers to defend against. If you have too many doctors and not enough hurt people for them to heal, what are they going to do? Run around hurting people so that they can then heal them?
  - crazypyro 12y ago
    Isn't there a major shortage in general practitioners? I vaguely remember some doom/gloom story about how America was going to run out of regular doctors. Seems contradictory to your statement though.
- frenchman_in_ny 12y ago
  Interesting discussion of medical school admissions and the limiting factors here [0], from a few days ago. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8122377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8122377
kghose 12y ago
"the incoming class is regulated to be approximately in line with the annual demand for new lawyers" There are dangers with trying to predict demand for individual goods and services for larger countries/markets.
- Perdition 12y ago
  Sure, but market signalling in a profession which takes years of education and training can lead to the same issues. And this article shows that market signalling is largely not working in this case (because people do not approach education on a rational market basis).
- girvo 12y ago
  Definitely, but private colleges exist, so you can always learn it on your own dime. It's just the government tuition free systems that have that restriction. Similar thing here in Australia.
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  But they're not nearly as big as the dangers of predatory "for-profit" education. And I'm fairly sure I've never heard anyone say "Oh crap - we've run out of lawyers."
EpicEng 12y ago
"the incoming class is regulated to be approximately in line with the annual demand for new lawyers" Our system has problems, serious problems, but I don't think that the government telling us what we can and can't do for a living is the solution.
- Perdition 12y ago
  The government already does tell you what you can and can't do for a living in regards to classical professions. You can't just hang up a shingle and call yourself a lawyer, an engineer, or a doctor (or other healthcare professional). The only difference with the Danish example is that the government refuses to write a blank check (student loans) to law schools who want to take advantage of the naivete of students. The US system would be vastly improved if the government stopped subsidizing the education industry's market distortions, or if the government actually regulated the education market. Right now it is the worst of both worlds with the government helping the education industry to fleece students and other tax payers.
  - mseebach 12y ago
    The refusal to write blank checks is more of an exception than the rule. For at least a couple of decades, politicians have begged young people to take any university education, any at all, with many nominally highly educated graduates out of work. The government pays a $1000/month (pre tax) stipend to all students for up to six years, and offers a similar sized amount in loans on very generous terms. As tuition is free, this is only to cover living expenses and study materials such as books. Taxes are high, even at that income level and so are living expenses, but it's still not a trivial sum.
    - Perdition 12y ago
      Those aren't blank checks though. The problem with the US system is that the government is backing loans with no regulation of what the universities charge, with the result that tuition costs have increased to the point where most middle-class people couldn't afford to send their kids to school if it wasn't for loans. Government paying education costs and regulating the price can work. Government paying education costs and not regulating the price is just corporate welfare.
jingo 12y ago
"... everything in this article reads like bizarro-land." Yes, that is how things will look if you live in a sane country like Denmark. But as the top post in this thread acknowledges, in bizarro-land people structure their lives (and "careers") according to the television. And TV says being a lawyer can only lead to good things. Moreover, most bizarro-land parents will agree with the television set. There was a Congressional study in bizarro-land a number of years back. The title went something like: "Bizarro-land. Can we sue our way to prosperity?" There will always be lots of litigation in bizarro-land. Because that is how they do business. When business succeeds, they sue. When business fails, they sue. Litigation is itself big business. If you read HN, then you know about the USPTO. The bizarro-land government issues rights to sue called patents and trademarks. Needless to say, these rights to sue are extremely popular there; probably more popular in bizarro-land than anywhere else in the world. Why? In bizarro-land, one can never have too many potential lawsuits ready to file. Can we sue our way to prosperity? "Yes, we can." There can never be too many lawyers in bizarro-land. I hope in DK that the taxes people pay go back to the people in some form. Because in bizarro-land the taxes people pay go to businesses that would otherwise fail. Banks get "bailed out". Universities go after the student loan programs (as mentioned in the article). Pharmaceutical companies go after the medical benefits programs. And so on. Consumers can no longer afford the overpriced products and services of these failing businesses, so the businesses go after the government coffers: get the government to pay for them! Denmark is one of the better countries you could live in anywhere in the world. Count your blessings.
- jingo 12y ago
  Quote from a bizarro-land lawyer who posts on HN who says he chose his job because he likes confrontation but then deletes his confrontational posts: "You've got the causality reversed. We're not bizarro world because we sue so much; we sue so much because we're bizarro world. To put it another way, it's not surprising that a small, high-trust, high-equality, high-consensus society like Denmark has much less need for formal dispute resolution than a large, low-trust, low-equality, low-concensus society like the U.S." Notice how he shifts from bizarro-land to "bizarro world". The rest of the world is not in all cases just like bizarro-land, or much worse. But when you are in bizarro-land, that's how the media often portrays it. And perhaps believing this makes it easier to tolerate bizarro-land and being stuck in it. Those with such a world view have my greatest sympathies. "... low trust, low equality, low consensus society." Sounds wonderful. What was that old Star Trek episode with the "energy force" shaped like a ball spinning near the ceiling causing everyone on the Enterprise to fight each other?
walshemj 12y ago
So who gets to decide who gets in the class seems ripe for discrimination against minorities and females.
- mseebach 12y ago
  It's mechanistic ranking on your high school GPA. No aptitude test, no essays, no interview. Just a flat ranking on a single number. But at least our system isn't "bizarre", so we can always feel good about that.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - walshemj 12y ago
    So I as a dyslexic would be screwed then.

omegaham 12y ago

The result of that would be similar to medical school in the US - a very small percentage of those who apply can get in. I think it's what the profession needs, but good luck convincing the BigLaw companies and law schools to go along with you. "Well yeah, the legal profession is inundated with unemployed kids in debt up to their eyeballs. That's what makes it so great!"

jessaustin 12y ago
Since most of us will only ever see medical care from the patient's perspective, it might surprise us that many physicians consider the medical profession to have the same problem, just not yet to the same degree as the legal profession. Of course the externalities of surplus lawyers are much worse for society than the externalities of surplus physicians.
- robryk 12y ago
  > Of course the externalities of surplus lawyers are much worse for society than the externalities of surplus physicians. Would you care to explain why? My guess is that you mean that a surplus of lawyers can cause additional demand for lawyers, which can't happen for physicians. Do I understand you correctly?
  - ufmace 12y ago
    I suppose if you have too many lawyers and not enough jobs for them, some will run around filing frivolous lawsuits that the counterparty will have to hire more lawyers to defend against. If you have too many doctors and not enough hurt people for them to heal, what are they going to do? Run around hurting people so that they can then heal them?
- crazypyro 12y ago
  Isn't there a major shortage in general practitioners? I vaguely remember some doom/gloom story about how America was going to run out of regular doctors. Seems contradictory to your statement though.
frenchman_in_ny 12y ago
Interesting discussion of medical school admissions and the limiting factors here [0], from a few days ago. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8122377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8122377

kghose 12y ago

"the incoming class is regulated to be approximately in line with the annual demand for new lawyers" There are dangers with trying to predict demand for individual goods and services for larger countries/markets.

Perdition 12y ago
Sure, but market signalling in a profession which takes years of education and training can lead to the same issues. And this article shows that market signalling is largely not working in this case (because people do not approach education on a rational market basis).
girvo 12y ago
Definitely, but private colleges exist, so you can always learn it on your own dime. It's just the government tuition free systems that have that restriction. Similar thing here in Australia.
TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
But they're not nearly as big as the dangers of predatory "for-profit" education. And I'm fairly sure I've never heard anyone say "Oh crap - we've run out of lawyers."

EpicEng 12y ago

"the incoming class is regulated to be approximately in line with the annual demand for new lawyers" Our system has problems, serious problems, but I don't think that the government telling us what we can and can't do for a living is the solution.

Perdition 12y ago
The government already does tell you what you can and can't do for a living in regards to classical professions. You can't just hang up a shingle and call yourself a lawyer, an engineer, or a doctor (or other healthcare professional). The only difference with the Danish example is that the government refuses to write a blank check (student loans) to law schools who want to take advantage of the naivete of students. The US system would be vastly improved if the government stopped subsidizing the education industry's market distortions, or if the government actually regulated the education market. Right now it is the worst of both worlds with the government helping the education industry to fleece students and other tax payers.
- mseebach 12y ago
  The refusal to write blank checks is more of an exception than the rule. For at least a couple of decades, politicians have begged young people to take any university education, any at all, with many nominally highly educated graduates out of work. The government pays a $1000/month (pre tax) stipend to all students for up to six years, and offers a similar sized amount in loans on very generous terms. As tuition is free, this is only to cover living expenses and study materials such as books. Taxes are high, even at that income level and so are living expenses, but it's still not a trivial sum.
  - Perdition 12y ago
    Those aren't blank checks though. The problem with the US system is that the government is backing loans with no regulation of what the universities charge, with the result that tuition costs have increased to the point where most middle-class people couldn't afford to send their kids to school if it wasn't for loans. Government paying education costs and regulating the price can work. Government paying education costs and not regulating the price is just corporate welfare.

jingo 12y ago

"... everything in this article reads like bizarro-land." Yes, that is how things will look if you live in a sane country like Denmark. But as the top post in this thread acknowledges, in bizarro-land people structure their lives (and "careers") according to the television. And TV says being a lawyer can only lead to good things. Moreover, most bizarro-land parents will agree with the television set. There was a Congressional study in bizarro-land a number of years back. The title went something like: "Bizarro-land. Can we sue our way to prosperity?" There will always be lots of litigation in bizarro-land. Because that is how they do business. When business succeeds, they sue. When business fails, they sue. Litigation is itself big business. If you read HN, then you know about the USPTO. The bizarro-land government issues rights to sue called patents and trademarks. Needless to say, these rights to sue are extremely popular there; probably more popular in bizarro-land than anywhere else in the world. Why? In bizarro-land, one can never have too many potential lawsuits ready to file. Can we sue our way to prosperity? "Yes, we can." There can never be too many lawyers in bizarro-land. I hope in DK that the taxes people pay go back to the people in some form. Because in bizarro-land the taxes people pay go to businesses that would otherwise fail. Banks get "bailed out". Universities go after the student loan programs (as mentioned in the article). Pharmaceutical companies go after the medical benefits programs. And so on. Consumers can no longer afford the overpriced products and services of these failing businesses, so the businesses go after the government coffers: get the government to pay for them! Denmark is one of the better countries you could live in anywhere in the world. Count your blessings.

jingo 12y ago
Quote from a bizarro-land lawyer who posts on HN who says he chose his job because he likes confrontation but then deletes his confrontational posts: "You've got the causality reversed. We're not bizarro world because we sue so much; we sue so much because we're bizarro world. To put it another way, it's not surprising that a small, high-trust, high-equality, high-consensus society like Denmark has much less need for formal dispute resolution than a large, low-trust, low-equality, low-concensus society like the U.S." Notice how he shifts from bizarro-land to "bizarro world". The rest of the world is not in all cases just like bizarro-land, or much worse. But when you are in bizarro-land, that's how the media often portrays it. And perhaps believing this makes it easier to tolerate bizarro-land and being stuck in it. Those with such a world view have my greatest sympathies. "... low trust, low equality, low consensus society." Sounds wonderful. What was that old Star Trek episode with the "energy force" shaped like a ball spinning near the ceiling causing everyone on the Enterprise to fight each other?

walshemj 12y ago

So who gets to decide who gets in the class seems ripe for discrimination against minorities and females.

mseebach 12y ago
It's mechanistic ranking on your high school GPA. No aptitude test, no essays, no interview. Just a flat ranking on a single number. But at least our system isn't "bizarre", so we can always feel good about that.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- walshemj 12y ago
  So I as a dyslexic would be screwed then.