5 ms·

Amen. I wish I had realized at a younger age the importance of investing in nice clothes. Not only does it make a person more confident, it is literally the dif

by dkrich 12y ago

Amen. I wish I had realized at a younger age the importance of investing in nice clothes. Not only does it make a person more confident, it is literally the difference in many cases between getting a good job and a spouse and being totally ignored. Despite what your teachers and parents told you growing up, dressing well is critical to success. Besides, why does it even matter if we enjoy something nice because society tells us it should make us happier? Yes, when I go out I DO want society to notice me and reward me. That's the reality of life- people have more respect for those who present themselves well. If the respect of others is something we value, then it makes sense to do what we can to gain that respect. Pretending that you're somehow above the rules of society is both naive and counterproductive. The bottom line is that if it makes us happier or more successful then it was a good investment.

gabzuka 12y ago
"when I go out I DO want society to notice me and reward me" reward you for what exactly?
- wyager 12y ago
  Manipulating their perception of you by taking advantage of social cues. I'm fine with people wanting to dress nicely as long as they realize it's total bullshit that people are judged by their clothes, but want to take advantage of it anyway. It's just human hacking. I do feel a bit bad when dressing nicely, because I worry that I am contributing to the continuation of the practice of judging people by their clothing.
  - dkrich 12y ago
    I don't understand this line of reasoning. When you go on a date, do you pick up the check for your SO? When you go to a bar do you buy a drink for your friends occasionally? Surely you'd rather save that money, but you have to "hack" society's rules so that they will like you. Maybe you "hack" HR policies that reinforce the use of proper grammar by refining your resume. Or hold the door open for somebody who is behind you when you'd rather just be on your way. Society is full of norms and social cues, and I don't think it's deception to control your behavior to align yourself with them. To not do so out of some notion that we should combat human instinct is rather naive. I think Benjamin Franklin put it best: "Eat to please thyself, but dress to please others."
    - wyager 12y ago
      It's human hacking when you recognize that the cues you're leveraging are inane and meaningless. Many people believe that the cues themselves are somehow meaningful or significant, and get caught up in the act. How, exactly, is it naive to try to overcome illogical biases and ways of being manipulated?
      - dkrich 12y ago
        Well I guess the fundamental disagreement is that I don't think these biases are best classified as illogical. Yes, if you are being completely objective, two job applicants should be judged solely on the basis of their qualifications. Yet, the one who is more polished is going to get the job ten times out of ten. Perception is simply a fundamental part of decision making, and I think the naivety lies in thinking that any of us are above catering to that perception or that we can somehow convince people to not rely on their perceptions.
  - jeffreyrogers 12y ago
    It's not total bullshit. It's grounded in evolutionary psychology. We like people who are attractive because that shows that they have good genes and are therefor worth either a) mating with, or b) keeping around for other reasons. Nice clothes help make a good impression if you're in relatively good shape and your body is well proportioned. If you're 100lbs overweight, that tailored tux just makes you look like a penguin.
    - wyager 12y ago
      So you're telling me it's not total bullshit to hire someone for a coding job based on how attractive they are/seem? Just because we have evolved heuristics for something doesn't mean those heuristics aren't stupid and irrelevant in some contexts.
webwright 12y ago
"Besides, why does it even matter if we enjoy something nice because society tells us it should make us happier?" If you REALLY enjoy it, that's great. But most of the research on the relationship between stuff/trappings and happiness finds that there isn't really any correlation. You're trained by evolution, society, and marketers to want these things, but (unless you're anomalous), they don't impact your happiness. Meanwhile, 20% of households spend more than they make, unemployed millennials spend ~$800/month on discretionary spending, and half of american households save no money at all.
krek 12y ago
> people have more respect for those who present themselves well If presenting yourself well means driving a luxury car, or having an expensive home, then no, I don't respect these people more than others. There are no such 'rules of society' except for materialistic people.
- dkrich 12y ago
  This is like saying "I don't respond to advertising." It sounds good in theory but pretty much falls flat on its face in reality.
- gopher1 12y ago
  The subconscious mind is a very powerful thing. Even if you say you don't respect those people more than others, it doesn't mean that you don't.
  - notahacker 12y ago
    Generally I respect people less for ostentatious displays of wealth (though a significant proportion of them have earned their money doing things I respect despite the sports car and bedrooms that outnumber even the guests). Inverse snobbery is a very powerful thing too ;) But I'm probably an outlier
hariis 12y ago
Dressing nice, clean and decent is different from dressing according to the latest fashion trends. Get people to respect you for who you are, if they don't, Do you want to care about them ? do you want such people to dictate your life?

by dkrich 12y ago

gabzuka 12y ago

"when I go out I DO want society to notice me and reward me" reward you for what exactly?

wyager 12y ago
Manipulating their perception of you by taking advantage of social cues. I'm fine with people wanting to dress nicely as long as they realize it's total bullshit that people are judged by their clothes, but want to take advantage of it anyway. It's just human hacking. I do feel a bit bad when dressing nicely, because I worry that I am contributing to the continuation of the practice of judging people by their clothing.
- dkrich 12y ago
  I don't understand this line of reasoning. When you go on a date, do you pick up the check for your SO? When you go to a bar do you buy a drink for your friends occasionally? Surely you'd rather save that money, but you have to "hack" society's rules so that they will like you. Maybe you "hack" HR policies that reinforce the use of proper grammar by refining your resume. Or hold the door open for somebody who is behind you when you'd rather just be on your way. Society is full of norms and social cues, and I don't think it's deception to control your behavior to align yourself with them. To not do so out of some notion that we should combat human instinct is rather naive. I think Benjamin Franklin put it best: "Eat to please thyself, but dress to please others."
  - wyager 12y ago
    It's human hacking when you recognize that the cues you're leveraging are inane and meaningless. Many people believe that the cues themselves are somehow meaningful or significant, and get caught up in the act. How, exactly, is it naive to try to overcome illogical biases and ways of being manipulated?
    - dkrich 12y ago
      Well I guess the fundamental disagreement is that I don't think these biases are best classified as illogical. Yes, if you are being completely objective, two job applicants should be judged solely on the basis of their qualifications. Yet, the one who is more polished is going to get the job ten times out of ten. Perception is simply a fundamental part of decision making, and I think the naivety lies in thinking that any of us are above catering to that perception or that we can somehow convince people to not rely on their perceptions.
- jeffreyrogers 12y ago
  It's not total bullshit. It's grounded in evolutionary psychology. We like people who are attractive because that shows that they have good genes and are therefor worth either a) mating with, or b) keeping around for other reasons. Nice clothes help make a good impression if you're in relatively good shape and your body is well proportioned. If you're 100lbs overweight, that tailored tux just makes you look like a penguin.
  - wyager 12y ago
    So you're telling me it's not total bullshit to hire someone for a coding job based on how attractive they are/seem? Just because we have evolved heuristics for something doesn't mean those heuristics aren't stupid and irrelevant in some contexts.

webwright 12y ago

"Besides, why does it even matter if we enjoy something nice because society tells us it should make us happier?" If you REALLY enjoy it, that's great. But most of the research on the relationship between stuff/trappings and happiness finds that there isn't really any correlation. You're trained by evolution, society, and marketers to want these things, but (unless you're anomalous), they don't impact your happiness. Meanwhile, 20% of households spend more than they make, unemployed millennials spend ~$800/month on discretionary spending, and half of american households save no money at all.

krek 12y ago

> people have more respect for those who present themselves well If presenting yourself well means driving a luxury car, or having an expensive home, then no, I don't respect these people more than others. There are no such 'rules of society' except for materialistic people.

dkrich 12y ago
This is like saying "I don't respond to advertising." It sounds good in theory but pretty much falls flat on its face in reality.
gopher1 12y ago
The subconscious mind is a very powerful thing. Even if you say you don't respect those people more than others, it doesn't mean that you don't.
- notahacker 12y ago
  Generally I respect people less for ostentatious displays of wealth (though a significant proportion of them have earned their money doing things I respect despite the sports car and bedrooms that outnumber even the guests). Inverse snobbery is a very powerful thing too ;) But I'm probably an outlier

hariis 12y ago

Dressing nice, clean and decent is different from dressing according to the latest fashion trends. Get people to respect you for who you are, if they don't, Do you want to care about them ? do you want such people to dictate your life?