6 ms·

A Google Adwords Bug That Cost Us

159 points by stevencorcoran 12y ago

rbinv 12y ago
Well this is unfortunate. I would have expected Google to credit your account accordingly, though. A couple of years ago, we noticed massive automated click fraud that Google's fraud detection algorithms didn't seem to catch (which was kind of strange since all the clicks came from the same IP). However, after sending over some HTTP logs to Google, they removed all the invalid clicks from our account within a day or so. I would definitely try to get my money back in your case.
- hrktb 12y ago
  This was added at the end of the post: > Edit: Since people keep asking, no my account wasn’t credited.
  - rbinv 12y ago
    It's not clear whether he asked or not.
- josealicarte 12y ago
  But how much should they be refunded? How should the average Adwords advertiser know how long the error was up there for?
mnw21cam 12y ago
Trust, but verify.
- joosters 12y ago
  Yeah yeah, that sounds great. The problem is, how do you verify some of Adwords' metrics and stats? There are so many ways that the service could screw up without you even being aware of it. Even in the example given (where the OP could see a wrong telephone number), how could they know how often it had been shown wrongly, and how many people had called? Only Google knows (or could know). You have to trust them, but you cannot verify them. Even if you come up with your own metrics to monitor Adwords, why would Google believe your numbers over theirs?
  - josealicarte 12y ago
    @ joosters you definitely right, sometimes it is hard to believe the figures when you only to look by your own metrics. it should have a proof before you trust while verifying them.
simonbarker87 12y ago
Google should really refund the money to you for that - they must be in breach of a terms of service?
- simonswords82 12y ago
  I need to second this, you've done a great job of keeping a level head and focussing on getting the issue sorted. Now it is sorted and they've admitted fault it's time to follow up and ask for your money back.
  - imdsm 12y ago
    I hate when people do this but totally thirding this. If you don't get the money back from them, something is seriously wrong here. You have admission of fault. Right there.
- csbrooks 12y ago
  Just a guess, I'm betting their terms of service are written so it's almost impossible for them to be in breach of them. Not to say they won't give a refund, but I'm guessing their lawyers have things setup so they aren't obligated to.
alecco 12y ago
How could we know if Google punishes public complaints like this with gradually poorer ad placing?
- eli 12y ago
  Maybe they punish commenters who ask too many questions too!
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  It'd show as gradually poorer CTR's and less money billed in the adwords campaign.
spindritf 12y ago
Did you ask for a refund and they didn't give you at least a partial one?
- wasyl 12y ago
  I'm curious as well, I don't think author hinted in the article that he did as for any compensation
rcarrigan87 12y ago
When I saw the title my initial thought was, "here we go, another person complaining about Adwords who probably just doesn't have the time to fully understand the intricacies of the platform." But this was a legit bug! Google made a clear mistake. I didn't see it in the post, but did you ever explicitly ask for a refund? If it were me I would certainly be demanding my money back for any clicks associated with the bug. Note: the nicer you're to customer service agents when you plead your case, the more likely they're to help you out. I'm not suggesting you were mean, just a general tip when trying to get an issue resolved, especially when dealing with big companies.
- dmix 12y ago
  The forwarding number was wrong but the Austin, Texas part was never proven though right? Was he using a Texas IP/VPN/fresh browser when searching results for it?
  - rcarrigan87 12y ago
    A good way to check is using the "Ad preview and diagnosis" tool in Adwords. You can set the location and see if your ad comes up. It's also a good way to look at raw search results (before google factors in your personal browsing history to serve up customized results). Location targetting is a little trickier than just setting geotargetting in Adwords. The targetting issues could be Google or could be their account setup. Hard to say without review. Considering there was definitely a bug with the phone number, they should have Google review their account fully.
golergka 12y ago
It really bothers me, how bad the Google's support is, especially for the products that make them money. It's common knowledge that they can close your advertiser's profile, lock the money and you won't be able to reach them about it. But at the same time, nobody is making a lot of noise about it, although it is a multi-billion dollar company and it is the product that they make most of their money from. Most of B2B start ups that wind up in "Show HN" have better support than Google! But no one is doing anything, because what can you do — switch another context ad system designed for another search engine? Yeah, right. This is the classical monopoly example, that no one does anything about.
- easytiger 12y ago
  I guess they don't want to open the floodgates to all the support queries they would get. But it is most frustrating as if one is dealing with the "computer says no" travel agent from Little Britain.
  - silverbax88 12y ago
    This has always bothered me. People always say that Twitter and Google can't offer real support because they would be able to handle the number of incoming requests. But that's exactly what companies like Amazon and Wal-Mart do every day. For crying out loud, even Comcast (COMCAST!) has better support than Google or Twitter for their paid products.
    - virtue3 12y ago
      Amazon is pretty top tier. Just being able to email jeff@amazon.com about an issue is huge (and I've seen people recount what happens when they get the forwarded "?" email). Also they will correct any mix up almost immediately and will almost always credit you when you ask (or at least throw in another free month of prime).
      - silverbax88 12y ago
        Exactly, but the thing is, Amazon looks like they went in completely ready to compete with the big boys like Wal-Mart on this level. All of the major retailers have call centers and phone numbers posted in their stores for people to call in. Major manufactures like John Deere and Ball and even Phillip Morris have consumer call staff. When Google and Twitter say they can't handle incoming calls or respond with anything other than automated email, what they are really saying is 'fuck you, we have no competition'...which works great until there is competition.
rwmj 12y ago
This guy doesn't have log files? This is basic stuff. There are even hundreds of companies out there who will verify many aspects of Google AdWords for you.
for_i_in_range 12y ago
I run an agency that spent over $5 million on AdWords last year; however, a month ago due to a new policy interpretation where now one isn't allowed to have prominent, clear call to action buttons in image ads, their systems retroactively disapproved all of my ads that were running for over a year, and then suspended all of my client accounts. And they won't jump on a call and offer a clear explanation or assistance in correcting the issue. And this is for someone who's Google AdWords Certified, a Google Partner, and (formerly) an AdWords fanboy. The support has gotten significantly better in recent years, but they routinely destroy the "little agencies" who build their entire business trusting AdWords as a long-term partner and won't hop on a call to help correct issues. Really sad, but I guess when you're making $70+ billion/year, losing a $5 million/year agency isn't a big deal or worth a phone call.
imdsm 12y ago
No credit to the account? Definitely pursue this! Absolutely, definitely pursue this. Find out why the number was wrong, find out why the technical team had to change it, find out how long it was wrong for, establish whose fault it was, tot up how much it cost you, and definitely ask for a refund! Just think if this was your personal money, what would you do? If you just take the hit, the money doesn't mean enough to you.
JonLim 12y ago
I hope you got a refund? We spend quite a bit of money on AdWords every day, and I started managing the account a few weeks ago (hand-off from an agency) and it's been a fantastic challenge to brush up on that part of my skill-set again. However, it's kind of weird that their numbers never really match up with ours, typically overreported, and I pray that we never run into an issue like the one you have had. On the bright side, at least AdWords numbers are predictably off (about 15% overreported, on average.) Facebook Ads numbers overreport anywhere from 10% to 100%, so that's the one I worry about on a day to day basis.
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  > I hope you got a refund? Seconded; the support people basically did state it was an error on their side, so a full refund sounds obvious. Maybe even a compensation for damages, since you probably lost a lot of potential customers.
pistle 12y ago
Is this really level of flailing emotion people bring to their customer service interactions? "It's just super frustrating because we spend like $300/day!" How about: "We have been spending $300/day, and an error on Google's part means we are not being provided the service we are paying for. We need to know that this is fixed and then will need to discuss our past spend with someone who can act on crediting our account. Here's how we can replicate the problem." You aren't their buddy. You are not asking for a "solid." You are a business owner, not some tweener boy that smudged their new white kicks. "you can also just search it now. it's still screwed up." Own the facts and deliver them without emotional loading. "Screwed up" is inaccurate and unprofessional - whiney in context with the "super frustrated" quip above. "You can also just..." leaves room for a different set of facts. Give a detailed description of the path you took and the results. If the results aren't obviously incorrect, define that issue. Repeat the desired outcome. And, if you have "a meeting" and can't get the issue resolved, then you should have someone else make the call who can grind it out or schedule abundant time for dealing with this - or maybe $300/day and the previous spend isn't all that much and you should just walk away from AdWords... You'd be better off penning blog articles that break down perfect grass types and pros/cons of various herbicides for the locality of McLean than crapping investor cash on advertising in the unseen margins of the search results. Lawn care is definitely a word of mouth and signs in green yard growth business. I'd ask neighbors before trusting anyone who pays for AdWords, because my bill for lawn care pays for those AdWords and a good lawn care company doesn't need ads. Most every service I've courted that does big ad spends on Google charges more for the same or worse service than other providers.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
wahsd 12y ago
This is interesting because it touches on a larger topic, what I call the Google bias. It is the bias that assumes that the search results from Google are the correct and most relevant results, when, in fact, they are simply the results that are the ones Google wishes / can output. When I do a search for topics or resources that I come across on here on HN or Reddit or other sources that are extremely valuable and informative and useful, there is almost no chance that you can find those resources simply by doing a google search. That's only a small, anecdotal example, but it indicates a larger issue to me; like the top couple snowflakes that are sitting on top of the tip of the iceberg.
IanDrake 12y ago
Hello from Google's automated help system. I see you mentioned the word "refund" in your long winded email which would have fully explained your situation to a human. You can apply for a refund here: https://support.google.com/adwords/refund/procedures https://support.google.com/adwords/refund/procedures Was this response helpful? Yes: https://support.google.com/adwords/Yes https://support.google.com/adwords/Yes No: https://support.google.com/adwords/FuckOff https://support.google.com/adwords/FuckOff
newman8r 12y ago
They have always been pretty good about refunding me when directly requested and presented with evidence. I think you need to directly ask for a refund, but since this situation is public now it might not be as simple.

159 points by stevencorcoran 12y ago

rbinv 12y ago

Well this is unfortunate. I would have expected Google to credit your account accordingly, though. A couple of years ago, we noticed massive automated click fraud that Google's fraud detection algorithms didn't seem to catch (which was kind of strange since all the clicks came from the same IP). However, after sending over some HTTP logs to Google, they removed all the invalid clicks from our account within a day or so. I would definitely try to get my money back in your case.

hrktb 12y ago
This was added at the end of the post: > Edit: Since people keep asking, no my account wasn’t credited.
- rbinv 12y ago
  It's not clear whether he asked or not.
josealicarte 12y ago
But how much should they be refunded? How should the average Adwords advertiser know how long the error was up there for?

mnw21cam 12y ago

Trust, but verify.

joosters 12y ago
Yeah yeah, that sounds great. The problem is, how do you verify some of Adwords' metrics and stats? There are so many ways that the service could screw up without you even being aware of it. Even in the example given (where the OP could see a wrong telephone number), how could they know how often it had been shown wrongly, and how many people had called? Only Google knows (or could know). You have to trust them, but you cannot verify them. Even if you come up with your own metrics to monitor Adwords, why would Google believe your numbers over theirs?
- josealicarte 12y ago
  @ joosters you definitely right, sometimes it is hard to believe the figures when you only to look by your own metrics. it should have a proof before you trust while verifying them.

simonbarker87 12y ago

Google should really refund the money to you for that - they must be in breach of a terms of service?

simonswords82 12y ago
I need to second this, you've done a great job of keeping a level head and focussing on getting the issue sorted. Now it is sorted and they've admitted fault it's time to follow up and ask for your money back.
- imdsm 12y ago
  I hate when people do this but totally thirding this. If you don't get the money back from them, something is seriously wrong here. You have admission of fault. Right there.
csbrooks 12y ago
Just a guess, I'm betting their terms of service are written so it's almost impossible for them to be in breach of them. Not to say they won't give a refund, but I'm guessing their lawyers have things setup so they aren't obligated to.

alecco 12y ago

How could we know if Google punishes public complaints like this with gradually poorer ad placing?

eli 12y ago
Maybe they punish commenters who ask too many questions too!
Cthulhu_ 12y ago
It'd show as gradually poorer CTR's and less money billed in the adwords campaign.

spindritf 12y ago

Did you ask for a refund and they didn't give you at least a partial one?

wasyl 12y ago
I'm curious as well, I don't think author hinted in the article that he did as for any compensation

rcarrigan87 12y ago

When I saw the title my initial thought was, "here we go, another person complaining about Adwords who probably just doesn't have the time to fully understand the intricacies of the platform." But this was a legit bug! Google made a clear mistake. I didn't see it in the post, but did you ever explicitly ask for a refund? If it were me I would certainly be demanding my money back for any clicks associated with the bug. Note: the nicer you're to customer service agents when you plead your case, the more likely they're to help you out. I'm not suggesting you were mean, just a general tip when trying to get an issue resolved, especially when dealing with big companies.

dmix 12y ago
The forwarding number was wrong but the Austin, Texas part was never proven though right? Was he using a Texas IP/VPN/fresh browser when searching results for it?
- rcarrigan87 12y ago
  A good way to check is using the "Ad preview and diagnosis" tool in Adwords. You can set the location and see if your ad comes up. It's also a good way to look at raw search results (before google factors in your personal browsing history to serve up customized results). Location targetting is a little trickier than just setting geotargetting in Adwords. The targetting issues could be Google or could be their account setup. Hard to say without review. Considering there was definitely a bug with the phone number, they should have Google review their account fully.

golergka 12y ago

It really bothers me, how bad the Google's support is, especially for the products that make them money. It's common knowledge that they can close your advertiser's profile, lock the money and you won't be able to reach them about it. But at the same time, nobody is making a lot of noise about it, although it is a multi-billion dollar company and it is the product that they make most of their money from. Most of B2B start ups that wind up in "Show HN" have better support than Google! But no one is doing anything, because what can you do — switch another context ad system designed for another search engine? Yeah, right. This is the classical monopoly example, that no one does anything about.

easytiger 12y ago
I guess they don't want to open the floodgates to all the support queries they would get. But it is most frustrating as if one is dealing with the "computer says no" travel agent from Little Britain.
- silverbax88 12y ago
  This has always bothered me. People always say that Twitter and Google can't offer real support because they would be able to handle the number of incoming requests. But that's exactly what companies like Amazon and Wal-Mart do every day. For crying out loud, even Comcast (COMCAST!) has better support than Google or Twitter for their paid products.
  - virtue3 12y ago
    Amazon is pretty top tier. Just being able to email jeff@amazon.com about an issue is huge (and I've seen people recount what happens when they get the forwarded "?" email). Also they will correct any mix up almost immediately and will almost always credit you when you ask (or at least throw in another free month of prime).
    - silverbax88 12y ago
      Exactly, but the thing is, Amazon looks like they went in completely ready to compete with the big boys like Wal-Mart on this level. All of the major retailers have call centers and phone numbers posted in their stores for people to call in. Major manufactures like John Deere and Ball and even Phillip Morris have consumer call staff. When Google and Twitter say they can't handle incoming calls or respond with anything other than automated email, what they are really saying is 'fuck you, we have no competition'...which works great until there is competition.

rwmj 12y ago

This guy doesn't have log files? This is basic stuff. There are even hundreds of companies out there who will verify many aspects of Google AdWords for you.

for_i_in_range 12y ago

I run an agency that spent over $5 million on AdWords last year; however, a month ago due to a new policy interpretation where now one isn't allowed to have prominent, clear call to action buttons in image ads, their systems retroactively disapproved all of my ads that were running for over a year, and then suspended all of my client accounts. And they won't jump on a call and offer a clear explanation or assistance in correcting the issue. And this is for someone who's Google AdWords Certified, a Google Partner, and (formerly) an AdWords fanboy. The support has gotten significantly better in recent years, but they routinely destroy the "little agencies" who build their entire business trusting AdWords as a long-term partner and won't hop on a call to help correct issues. Really sad, but I guess when you're making $70+ billion/year, losing a $5 million/year agency isn't a big deal or worth a phone call.

imdsm 12y ago

No credit to the account? Definitely pursue this! Absolutely, definitely pursue this. Find out why the number was wrong, find out why the technical team had to change it, find out how long it was wrong for, establish whose fault it was, tot up how much it cost you, and definitely ask for a refund! Just think if this was your personal money, what would you do? If you just take the hit, the money doesn't mean enough to you.

JonLim 12y ago

I hope you got a refund? We spend quite a bit of money on AdWords every day, and I started managing the account a few weeks ago (hand-off from an agency) and it's been a fantastic challenge to brush up on that part of my skill-set again. However, it's kind of weird that their numbers never really match up with ours, typically overreported, and I pray that we never run into an issue like the one you have had. On the bright side, at least AdWords numbers are predictably off (about 15% overreported, on average.) Facebook Ads numbers overreport anywhere from 10% to 100%, so that's the one I worry about on a day to day basis.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago
> I hope you got a refund? Seconded; the support people basically did state it was an error on their side, so a full refund sounds obvious. Maybe even a compensation for damages, since you probably lost a lot of potential customers.

pistle 12y ago

Is this really level of flailing emotion people bring to their customer service interactions? "It's just super frustrating because we spend like $300/day!" How about: "We have been spending $300/day, and an error on Google's part means we are not being provided the service we are paying for. We need to know that this is fixed and then will need to discuss our past spend with someone who can act on crediting our account. Here's how we can replicate the problem." You aren't their buddy. You are not asking for a "solid." You are a business owner, not some tweener boy that smudged their new white kicks. "you can also just search it now. it's still screwed up." Own the facts and deliver them without emotional loading. "Screwed up" is inaccurate and unprofessional - whiney in context with the "super frustrated" quip above. "You can also just..." leaves room for a different set of facts. Give a detailed description of the path you took and the results. If the results aren't obviously incorrect, define that issue. Repeat the desired outcome. And, if you have "a meeting" and can't get the issue resolved, then you should have someone else make the call who can grind it out or schedule abundant time for dealing with this - or maybe $300/day and the previous spend isn't all that much and you should just walk away from AdWords... You'd be better off penning blog articles that break down perfect grass types and pros/cons of various herbicides for the locality of McLean than crapping investor cash on advertising in the unseen margins of the search results. Lawn care is definitely a word of mouth and signs in green yard growth business. I'd ask neighbors before trusting anyone who pays for AdWords, because my bill for lawn care pays for those AdWords and a good lawn care company doesn't need ads. Most every service I've courted that does big ad spends on Google charges more for the same or worse service than other providers.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

wahsd 12y ago

This is interesting because it touches on a larger topic, what I call the Google bias. It is the bias that assumes that the search results from Google are the correct and most relevant results, when, in fact, they are simply the results that are the ones Google wishes / can output. When I do a search for topics or resources that I come across on here on HN or Reddit or other sources that are extremely valuable and informative and useful, there is almost no chance that you can find those resources simply by doing a google search. That's only a small, anecdotal example, but it indicates a larger issue to me; like the top couple snowflakes that are sitting on top of the tip of the iceberg.

IanDrake 12y ago

Hello from Google's automated help system. I see you mentioned the word "refund" in your long winded email which would have fully explained your situation to a human. You can apply for a refund here: https://support.google.com/adwords/refund/procedures https://support.google.com/adwords/refund/procedures Was this response helpful? Yes: https://support.google.com/adwords/Yes https://support.google.com/adwords/Yes No: https://support.google.com/adwords/FuckOff https://support.google.com/adwords/FuckOff

newman8r 12y ago

They have always been pretty good about refunding me when directly requested and presented with evidence. I think you need to directly ask for a refund, but since this situation is public now it might not be as simple.