5 ms·

The OP's explanation is indeed poor. You can possibly add additional hypothesis which rescue it (I suggested one in the post you just responded to), but that do

The OP's explanation is indeed poor. You can possibly add additional hypothesis which rescue it (I suggested one in the post you just responded to), but that doesn't mean the original hypothesis by itself isn't poor. what is the most significant difference between doctors and engineers? Obviously: distribution among genders in medicine is much more balanced than in technology. The key word here is "is". This was not true in the past. Yet somehow, medicine attracted women but tech didn't. At this historical point, did boy doctors not ask out girl doctors, but boy programmers did ask out girl programmers? Same for law, etc? Your "minority + asked out" theory predicts women can never escape minority status, which is evidently false. If you want an explanation it needs to be specific to computing. Have you not talked to one who was shaken by being hit on by a guy in a work setting? I am not the suave, athletic bachelor you obviously are... I've heard this story before. I've heard of women being hit on in church gatherings also, yet church is full of women. Thus it fails as an explanation of why women are underrepresented in technology but not other fields. Also, can I suggest leaving Michael O. Church alone? It's not necessary to drag him into a random conversation on topic completely unrelated to VC-istan.

tptacek 12y ago
I'm confused. The M.O.C. point was very simple. As it turns out from this comment, you empathize with the struggles of a white male with an established career history getting a fair shake in VC-funded technology. But for reasons I have not yet managed to unearth, you do not empathize with women whose careers are impeded by gender bias --- or, in a distinction that makes no difference, you're unable to acknowledge that gender bias exists. You seem like the kind of person who would be irritated by the knowledge that he's missing something. You don't have a gnawing feeling that maybe you're missing something in this conversation?
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  I said "don't pick on Michael O. Church" (something I've observed you do repeatedly). I didn't say "Michael O. Church's factual claims are correct." I get the impression that I'm discussing testable hypothesis about the world, whereas you are attempting to signal empathy and kindness. My very specific claim: if you postulate a theory why tech lacks women, your theory must distinguish between technology and medicine/law/catholicism (catholicism has lots of gender bias and lots of women). "People ask other people out" does not make this distinction. Incidentally, there is a third possibility which you seem to be glossing over. I believe gender bias exists but is not the cause of women being underrepresented in tech.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I just made the distinction. Being asked out when you're the one woman among ten men is a different and more alienating experience than being asked out when you're one of four women along with six men.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      Let me repeat: women were a minority in medicine and law at one point. Why did getting asked out not prevent them from achieving parity in those fields?
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Because entry into medicine is neither entrepreneurial nor social. You apply and you get in. The medical professions evaluate gender trends by the number of women who go to medical school. Once you graduate medical school, you're on a track that leads straightforwardly to gainful employment. That allowed schools to be a focal point for policy changes to improve representation of women in the field. The same thing goes for law. My sister graduated UChicago law and got a lucrative, high-status biglaw job immediately based, as I understand it, pretty much on her track record in school. No similar track exists for software, and, obviously, even less of a path exists in entrepreneurial technology, which is largely controlled by wealthy male gatekeepers. Tangentially: a law or medical professor could be fired for aggressively propositioning a student. A successful investor can't be "fired". But also: you dodged my question instead of addressing it. Do you actually believe that the experience of being targeted by sexual advances is the same if you're one women surrounded by men as it is if you're one of many women surrounded by an almost equal number of men?
        yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Neither is entry into tech. Only entry into the extremely narrow "Sand Hill Road" style VC funded tech is entrepreneurial and social. There is a rigid heirarchical track for software much like law: stanford -> google, or MIT -> apple, or rutgers -> morgan stanley. Most of technology fits a track like this, in fact. I didn't dodge your question, I pointed out why the answer was irrelevant. There are two ways to debunk a theory: directly (by showing a premise is false) and by contradiction (showing it implies a false conclusion). I'm doing the latter. As for how women feel about being asked out, in my experience the primary determinant is how attractive she finds the asker. To relate a real life experience, if a woman is surrounded by firefighters and one of them asks her out, she probably won't mind. Not that the anecdotes really matter (see the point above about argument by contradiction).

tptacek 12y ago

I'm confused. The M.O.C. point was very simple. As it turns out from this comment, you empathize with the struggles of a white male with an established career history getting a fair shake in VC-funded technology. But for reasons I have not yet managed to unearth, you do not empathize with women whose careers are impeded by gender bias --- or, in a distinction that makes no difference, you're unable to acknowledge that gender bias exists. You seem like the kind of person who would be irritated by the knowledge that he's missing something. You don't have a gnawing feeling that maybe you're missing something in this conversation?

yummyfajitas 12y ago
I said "don't pick on Michael O. Church" (something I've observed you do repeatedly). I didn't say "Michael O. Church's factual claims are correct." I get the impression that I'm discussing testable hypothesis about the world, whereas you are attempting to signal empathy and kindness. My very specific claim: if you postulate a theory why tech lacks women, your theory must distinguish between technology and medicine/law/catholicism (catholicism has lots of gender bias and lots of women). "People ask other people out" does not make this distinction. Incidentally, there is a third possibility which you seem to be glossing over. I believe gender bias exists but is not the cause of women being underrepresented in tech.
- tptacek 12y ago
  I just made the distinction. Being asked out when you're the one woman among ten men is a different and more alienating experience than being asked out when you're one of four women along with six men.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    Let me repeat: women were a minority in medicine and law at one point. Why did getting asked out not prevent them from achieving parity in those fields?
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Because entry into medicine is neither entrepreneurial nor social. You apply and you get in. The medical professions evaluate gender trends by the number of women who go to medical school. Once you graduate medical school, you're on a track that leads straightforwardly to gainful employment. That allowed schools to be a focal point for policy changes to improve representation of women in the field. The same thing goes for law. My sister graduated UChicago law and got a lucrative, high-status biglaw job immediately based, as I understand it, pretty much on her track record in school. No similar track exists for software, and, obviously, even less of a path exists in entrepreneurial technology, which is largely controlled by wealthy male gatekeepers. Tangentially: a law or medical professor could be fired for aggressively propositioning a student. A successful investor can't be "fired". But also: you dodged my question instead of addressing it. Do you actually believe that the experience of being targeted by sexual advances is the same if you're one women surrounded by men as it is if you're one of many women surrounded by an almost equal number of men?
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Neither is entry into tech. Only entry into the extremely narrow "Sand Hill Road" style VC funded tech is entrepreneurial and social. There is a rigid heirarchical track for software much like law: stanford -> google, or MIT -> apple, or rutgers -> morgan stanley. Most of technology fits a track like this, in fact. I didn't dodge your question, I pointed out why the answer was irrelevant. There are two ways to debunk a theory: directly (by showing a premise is false) and by contradiction (showing it implies a false conclusion). I'm doing the latter. As for how women feel about being asked out, in my experience the primary determinant is how attractive she finds the asker. To relate a real life experience, if a woman is surrounded by firefighters and one of them asks her out, she probably won't mind. Not that the anecdotes really matter (see the point above about argument by contradiction).