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>But if asking her out isn't worth more to you than your job is, then leave things professional. Quit your job just to ask a woman out? Asking a woman out you

>But if asking her out isn't worth more to you than your job is, then leave things professional. Quit your job just to ask a woman out? Asking a woman out you recently met isn't sexual harassment. Some advice to your specific example: 1. Don't do it during demo day. She's a founder, and that's her time to meet with investors. 2. If you are planning on investing in her company- potential conflict of interest. Don't get involved personally. 3. If you don't have any desire to invest in her company-don't mislead your intentions. If you follow up and ask her out, don't be ambiguous with a coffee/lunch meeting that could be construed as business related. Do something that is clearly a date-like activity. 4. Don't use your influence/position for personal advantage. Yes I'm going to generalize here, but no woman, even if she isn't interested, is going to be upset if you asked her out, if you do so at the appropriate time, appropriate place, and in a respectful way.

yid 12y ago
> Quit your job just to ask a woman out? No, but you can recuse yourself from that particular deal.
- balls187 12y ago
  That was in response to the original comment suggesting an Investor should at least consider quitting their job before asking out a founder they met at a demo-day event. Which is very much cutting off your nose to spite your face.
acabrahams 12y ago
Yes. You are generalizing. Massively. There is no possible situation in which a VC I had met could ask me out without making me feel extremely uncomfortable, to put it lightly. There are lots of logical reasons for this reaction, and I will list some of them briefly. 1) Power of VC network is implicit threat to 'play nice' and go along with it, even if VC in question has no intention of being nasty in any way. 2) The power imbalance already implicit in VC/founder relations makes 'asking me out' incredibly tense. 3) It would make me doubt myself- "Is every other VC I am talking to (since they are 90% men) just interested in me for that reason?". So follow the OP's advice. And just don't do it.
- balls187 12y ago
  The reasons you list are often cited reasons why managers or people in authority should not "fraternize" with subordinates. You're right, very logical reasons, and why most companies frown on that behavior. I understand that founders want to be taken seriously, and and investor blurring the lines between professional and personal relationships can jeopardize that, but not all relationships with investors are like that, and I'd imagine not all founders would doubt themselves if approached after the fact. I am biased, because in Seattle, the VC community isn't as threatening from a "play nice or else" perspective. Also, I'm a sucker for romance and the boy meets girl, and live happily ever after story.
- afro88 12y ago
  I think balls187 left off one important point as a VC: make it clear that you aren't interested in investing in their company, but want to go for coffee/lunch/whatever on a purely personal basis. As a founder, the discomfort comes from not knowing the VC's intentions and how you are supposed to act with regards to your company. The VC needs to draw a clear line (ruling out investment and all other professional involvement) that takes a lot of that discomfort out of the situation, and removes the mixing of business and pleasure.
  - balls187 12y ago
    > make it clear that you aren't interested in investing in their company, but want to go for coffee/lunch/whatever on a purely personal basis. You're 100% right (which is why I said don't mislead). However, this is far more nuanced, than I first imagined. From purely a dating perspective, I'm not sure how a guy could recover from rejecting a women professionally, to getting her to accepting a date. I guess the circumstances would have to be something like investment thesis don't align "we do biotech, your company is education." In startups, I'd argue that founders personal lives and their businesses are inextricably linked, and rejecting one, is tantamount to rejecting the other. Which makes for an inbalanced dynamic as acabrahams mentioned, which could be troublesome.
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AlSweigart 12y ago
The cluelessness that... balls187... is exhibiting is the reason why so many men do unprofessional, uncomfortable, and offensive things and then say, "What? That's not offensive. That wasn't sexual harassment." It seems no matter how loud the chorus of women who complain about this behavior is, some men still feel like they are the ones who get to define what sexual harassment is.
- balls187 12y ago
  So setting aside your ad hominem attack, do you have an actual counter argument? > It seems no matter how loud the chorus of women who complain about this behavior is, some men still feel like they are the ones who get to define what sexual harassment is. Women don't get to define what sexual harassment is either. You see, sexual harassment (in the US) is a LEGAL issue with LEGAL consequences. It's defined as "...unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general." [1] Granted that while the EEOC definition really only pertains to the work, it's not hard to extend that definition to scenarios outside employment (such as any professional setting). Any unwanted behavior is not okay. However, I believe that politely asking a woman for a date (given the right circumstances [see my list prior]), is not sexual harassment, even if a woman is not interested. My response in my earlier comment was very specific to the OP's contrived scenario: an investor meets a female founder, he likes her, he feels that she likes him back (this was the key) so he should quit his job before making a move. Quitting his job has no bearing on whether the women would find his "asking her out for a date" welcome or not, because there wouldn't be any way for her to know he quit, unless he told her, and in that case she'd probably think he's crazy (rightly so). That of course presupposes the investor did not misread the situation, given he is a potential investor, and she is a female founder. [1] http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

yid 12y ago

> Quit your job just to ask a woman out? No, but you can recuse yourself from that particular deal.

balls187 12y ago
That was in response to the original comment suggesting an Investor should at least consider quitting their job before asking out a founder they met at a demo-day event. Which is very much cutting off your nose to spite your face.

acabrahams 12y ago

Yes. You are generalizing. Massively. There is no possible situation in which a VC I had met could ask me out without making me feel extremely uncomfortable, to put it lightly. There are lots of logical reasons for this reaction, and I will list some of them briefly. 1) Power of VC network is implicit threat to 'play nice' and go along with it, even if VC in question has no intention of being nasty in any way. 2) The power imbalance already implicit in VC/founder relations makes 'asking me out' incredibly tense. 3) It would make me doubt myself- "Is every other VC I am talking to (since they are 90% men) just interested in me for that reason?". So follow the OP's advice. And just don't do it.

balls187 12y ago
The reasons you list are often cited reasons why managers or people in authority should not "fraternize" with subordinates. You're right, very logical reasons, and why most companies frown on that behavior. I understand that founders want to be taken seriously, and and investor blurring the lines between professional and personal relationships can jeopardize that, but not all relationships with investors are like that, and I'd imagine not all founders would doubt themselves if approached after the fact. I am biased, because in Seattle, the VC community isn't as threatening from a "play nice or else" perspective. Also, I'm a sucker for romance and the boy meets girl, and live happily ever after story.
afro88 12y ago
I think balls187 left off one important point as a VC: make it clear that you aren't interested in investing in their company, but want to go for coffee/lunch/whatever on a purely personal basis. As a founder, the discomfort comes from not knowing the VC's intentions and how you are supposed to act with regards to your company. The VC needs to draw a clear line (ruling out investment and all other professional involvement) that takes a lot of that discomfort out of the situation, and removes the mixing of business and pleasure.
- balls187 12y ago
  > make it clear that you aren't interested in investing in their company, but want to go for coffee/lunch/whatever on a purely personal basis. You're 100% right (which is why I said don't mislead). However, this is far more nuanced, than I first imagined. From purely a dating perspective, I'm not sure how a guy could recover from rejecting a women professionally, to getting her to accepting a date. I guess the circumstances would have to be something like investment thesis don't align "we do biotech, your company is education." In startups, I'd argue that founders personal lives and their businesses are inextricably linked, and rejecting one, is tantamount to rejecting the other. Which makes for an inbalanced dynamic as acabrahams mentioned, which could be troublesome.

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AlSweigart 12y ago

The cluelessness that... balls187... is exhibiting is the reason why so many men do unprofessional, uncomfortable, and offensive things and then say, "What? That's not offensive. That wasn't sexual harassment." It seems no matter how loud the chorus of women who complain about this behavior is, some men still feel like they are the ones who get to define what sexual harassment is.

balls187 12y ago
So setting aside your ad hominem attack, do you have an actual counter argument? > It seems no matter how loud the chorus of women who complain about this behavior is, some men still feel like they are the ones who get to define what sexual harassment is. Women don't get to define what sexual harassment is either. You see, sexual harassment (in the US) is a LEGAL issue with LEGAL consequences. It's defined as "...unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature. Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general." [1] Granted that while the EEOC definition really only pertains to the work, it's not hard to extend that definition to scenarios outside employment (such as any professional setting). Any unwanted behavior is not okay. However, I believe that politely asking a woman for a date (given the right circumstances [see my list prior]), is not sexual harassment, even if a woman is not interested. My response in my earlier comment was very specific to the OP's contrived scenario: an investor meets a female founder, he likes her, he feels that she likes him back (this was the key) so he should quit his job before making a move. Quitting his job has no bearing on whether the women would find his "asking her out for a date" welcome or not, because there wouldn't be any way for her to know he quit, unless he told her, and in that case she'd probably think he's crazy (rightly so). That of course presupposes the investor did not misread the situation, given he is a potential investor, and she is a female founder. [1] http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm