8 ms·

Some people might criticise these numbers, particularly the 70% male ratio. However, to really determine whether a company is being as diverse and open to equal

by unfunco 12y ago

Some people might criticise these numbers, particularly the 70% male ratio. However, to really determine whether a company is being as diverse and open to equality as possible, the same measurements should be applied to the applicants as well as the employees. If seven out of ten applicants are male then the 70% male ratio doesn't indicate a bias. It might mean that the company isn't as attractive to female applicants, but then again, neither is the discipline behind many of their products (at the moment.)

weaksauce 12y ago
I think you'd have to look at qualified candidates in that percentage. Only then would you be able to look at the percentages directly.
Someone 12y ago
You are right; a bare 70% number does not say anything without further analysis. It is hard to separate the effects of lower attractiveness of their jobs to women, the acceptance of women in their workplace, and women's perception of that acceptance. And of course (and as you know) the reverse is not true, either. The fraction of non-Caucasian members in the KKK probably reflects the fraction of non-Caucasian applicants they get, but that does not imply that hey do not have a bias.
aristus 12y ago
Please, stop repeating this tiresome excuse. Absolving a company and blaming the pipeline does not help actually solve the problem. 1) There is a "filter" problem, eg bias in interviewing. This is what you are talking about. 2) There is the "pipeline" problem, eg universities and recruiting practices. 3) There is the self-selection problem, eg women / minorities going into other fields because they don't want to deal with the horseshit. ...plus many others, including how the few women are treated after they get the job. The only cure is sunlight. You optimize what you measure. If we can get tech companies to publish these numbers every year, then maybe they'll start doing something about it.
- Strang 12y ago
  You are discussing subjective matters. You can't convince anyone by asserting your personal beliefs as truth. And calling someone's good-faith comment a "tiresome excuse" is rather rude.
- vnchr 12y ago
  I think it's a fair point that publishing this info on a regular basis is an important way to focus efforts on results.
- tytytytyty 12y ago
  No, your the problem. Hysterical social-justice-warrior making problems where there is none. There was a study done not long ago that shows the number of people taking computer science was predominately white and male. And the fact is any company that does not have a workforce along those numbers (pinterest for example) should be considered as having suspect hiring practises. But hey it's only bigotry against "white" "males" and it hip to be ok with that nowadays, right HN?
  - dasil003 12y ago
    Why did you quote "white" and "males"? Is it because you suspect many of them to secretly be black women wearing whiteface? Anyway, there is a reason that white males are not allowed to talk about bigotry against themselves, and it's not about some conspiratorial hipsterism to sabotage you. It's because if you are a white man born in America complaining about discrimination pretty much everyone else in the world will you see you like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90HhZ-pyC2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90HhZ-pyC2Y
    - tytytytyty 12y ago
      I'm not American, I don't live in America, and I can to a degree I can understand all this retardation coming from a country with such a rich history of overt racism. But goddamn the internet != america and these international tech companies having to pander to you delicate tulips is getting old. Hell, why not go after Samsung for hiring too many Koreans.
arrrg 12y ago
Well, targeted outreach for applications followed by a blind review process has been shown to be successful in increasing the number of women speakers at conferences. John Oliver was recently in the news for using that approach when looking for writers for his new show (but he has only nine writers, so it’s hard to draw any conclusions from the outcome in his case). Please don’t pretend that companies can do nothing about who sends the applications. I don’t know what Apple does, but I do know that many companies are doing some kind of outreach already (going to conferences, publishing job adverts in many places, maybe even specifically calling people and asking them whether they would want to apply), so optimizing that with diversity goals in mind would not be something very weird. Your portrayal of the situation is extremely simplistic and misleading.
foolrush 12y ago
The issue with this line of reasoning is that it avoids complex notions of cyclical reinforcement, as well as lower level, and likely systemic, bias. That is, there are potential ideological underpinnings that lead to the rather by-the-book statistical analysis. When Lombroso attempted his measurements of criminality, and leveraged what appeared to be an exhaustive bit of data against the subject, inevitable analysis of the data ensued. What was missed however, were the vastly more complex subjects of “What is criminality” and “Who defines criminality” for example. In a way, the data became a cyclical reinforcement of the (false) hypothesis, while ignoring the entire sociological dimension. Very few have stopped to question the metrics and models, and instead only see the data. In this case, it may be prudent to not stop at the 70% data, and dig beneath it to evaluate the ideology and biases that _may_ have played a role in the symptom. It is seductive to lean on Western Rationalism / Scientism, but we conceivably could do well to question the systems that give rise to the models that yield the data.
nud 12y ago
When Apple came to my university to run an engineering recruitment event, they flew in 12 employees to speak with us, zero of which were female. When asked by the audience about the presence of female engineers at Apple, they sputtered some non-sensical reply. If not enough women are applying for engineering jobs at Apple, then at least one of the reasons is that the company is not making sufficient effort to try and recruit them.
incision 12y ago
>'However, to really determine whether a company is being as diverse and open to equality as possible, the same measurements should be applied to the applicants as well as the employees.' That impresses me as the sort of information no company would want to release in total. There's just too much room for criticism.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Right; absent a control (who applies to other companies? how qualified are the applicants really?) any bias can be misconstrued.

by unfunco 12y ago

weaksauce 12y ago

I think you'd have to look at qualified candidates in that percentage. Only then would you be able to look at the percentages directly.

Someone 12y ago

You are right; a bare 70% number does not say anything without further analysis. It is hard to separate the effects of lower attractiveness of their jobs to women, the acceptance of women in their workplace, and women's perception of that acceptance. And of course (and as you know) the reverse is not true, either. The fraction of non-Caucasian members in the KKK probably reflects the fraction of non-Caucasian applicants they get, but that does not imply that hey do not have a bias.

aristus 12y ago

Please, stop repeating this tiresome excuse. Absolving a company and blaming the pipeline does not help actually solve the problem. 1) There is a "filter" problem, eg bias in interviewing. This is what you are talking about. 2) There is the "pipeline" problem, eg universities and recruiting practices. 3) There is the self-selection problem, eg women / minorities going into other fields because they don't want to deal with the horseshit. ...plus many others, including how the few women are treated after they get the job. The only cure is sunlight. You optimize what you measure. If we can get tech companies to publish these numbers every year, then maybe they'll start doing something about it.

Strang 12y ago
You are discussing subjective matters. You can't convince anyone by asserting your personal beliefs as truth. And calling someone's good-faith comment a "tiresome excuse" is rather rude.
vnchr 12y ago
I think it's a fair point that publishing this info on a regular basis is an important way to focus efforts on results.
tytytytyty 12y ago
No, your the problem. Hysterical social-justice-warrior making problems where there is none. There was a study done not long ago that shows the number of people taking computer science was predominately white and male. And the fact is any company that does not have a workforce along those numbers (pinterest for example) should be considered as having suspect hiring practises. But hey it's only bigotry against "white" "males" and it hip to be ok with that nowadays, right HN?
- dasil003 12y ago
  Why did you quote "white" and "males"? Is it because you suspect many of them to secretly be black women wearing whiteface? Anyway, there is a reason that white males are not allowed to talk about bigotry against themselves, and it's not about some conspiratorial hipsterism to sabotage you. It's because if you are a white man born in America complaining about discrimination pretty much everyone else in the world will you see you like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90HhZ-pyC2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90HhZ-pyC2Y
  - tytytytyty 12y ago
    I'm not American, I don't live in America, and I can to a degree I can understand all this retardation coming from a country with such a rich history of overt racism. But goddamn the internet != america and these international tech companies having to pander to you delicate tulips is getting old. Hell, why not go after Samsung for hiring too many Koreans.

arrrg 12y ago

Well, targeted outreach for applications followed by a blind review process has been shown to be successful in increasing the number of women speakers at conferences. John Oliver was recently in the news for using that approach when looking for writers for his new show (but he has only nine writers, so it’s hard to draw any conclusions from the outcome in his case). Please don’t pretend that companies can do nothing about who sends the applications. I don’t know what Apple does, but I do know that many companies are doing some kind of outreach already (going to conferences, publishing job adverts in many places, maybe even specifically calling people and asking them whether they would want to apply), so optimizing that with diversity goals in mind would not be something very weird. Your portrayal of the situation is extremely simplistic and misleading.

foolrush 12y ago

The issue with this line of reasoning is that it avoids complex notions of cyclical reinforcement, as well as lower level, and likely systemic, bias. That is, there are potential ideological underpinnings that lead to the rather by-the-book statistical analysis. When Lombroso attempted his measurements of criminality, and leveraged what appeared to be an exhaustive bit of data against the subject, inevitable analysis of the data ensued. What was missed however, were the vastly more complex subjects of “What is criminality” and “Who defines criminality” for example. In a way, the data became a cyclical reinforcement of the (false) hypothesis, while ignoring the entire sociological dimension. Very few have stopped to question the metrics and models, and instead only see the data. In this case, it may be prudent to not stop at the 70% data, and dig beneath it to evaluate the ideology and biases that _may_ have played a role in the symptom. It is seductive to lean on Western Rationalism / Scientism, but we conceivably could do well to question the systems that give rise to the models that yield the data.

nud 12y ago

When Apple came to my university to run an engineering recruitment event, they flew in 12 employees to speak with us, zero of which were female. When asked by the audience about the presence of female engineers at Apple, they sputtered some non-sensical reply. If not enough women are applying for engineering jobs at Apple, then at least one of the reasons is that the company is not making sufficient effort to try and recruit them.

incision 12y ago

>'However, to really determine whether a company is being as diverse and open to equality as possible, the same measurements should be applied to the applicants as well as the employees.' That impresses me as the sort of information no company would want to release in total. There's just too much room for criticism.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Right; absent a control (who applies to other companies? how qualified are the applicants really?) any bias can be misconstrued.