7 ms·

It's rare that bad business regulations and/or government sponsored monopolies are just, ya know, fixed. Quite often, people need to be shown how bad things hav

It's rare that bad business regulations and/or government sponsored monopolies are just, ya know, fixed. Quite often, people need to be shown how bad things have gotten before anything changes. It's even worse when the target of those regulations don't want things fixed either. Taxi companies pay crazy medallion fees, but expect exclusivity (perhaps rightly so) for that fee. Government doesn't want the fee income to go away, taxi companies enjoy their monopoly. Sometimes it takes someone breaking the rules - and more importantly, with the general full support of the public - to really cause any change in the old, entrenched ways.

uptown 12y ago
Breaking the rules doesn't require you to knee-cap your competition - but it says a lot about the ethics of your business. I wouldn't entrust my safety to a company that's so flagrant about their ethics.
- SamReidHughes 12y ago
  This is just nonsensical. You're talking about getting a ride in a car.
  - thesteamboat 12y ago
    Which is, statistically speaking, one of the most dangerous things you do every day.
    - bithive123 12y ago
      Right, and when there are statistics showing that Uber drivers pose a greater danger to their passengers than any other road hazards created by unethical companies then the sentiment will be meaningful.
      - sliverstorm 12y ago
        I don't need statistics to elect not to put my life in somebody's hands.
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        That's also wrong, that "somebody" might be much more experienced in driving than you. One of the big problems with drivers (and humans in general) is the irrational feeling that being in control means being safer.
        sliverstorm 12y ago
        Sure, they might be. But why would I assume they are?
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        If we're talking about taxi drivers, it's reasonable to assume they're more experienced because they spent more hours on the road (unless, of course, you drive more than they do).
        sliverstorm 12y ago
        Sorry, I was unclear. What I was thinking about was, whether I would be safe with them is hard to assume. - They probably have more experience behind the wheel, but they also have different incentives. - Time behind the wheel doesn't automatically mean more skilled/safe. There's plenty of reasons I could be safer in a cab, but also plenty of reasons I wouldn't assume that.
        bithive123 12y ago
        Except you don't really have a choice given that we all share the roads.
        sliverstorm 12y ago
- philwelch 12y ago
  Violating regulations which, in themselves, are against the public interest? I don't see that as unethical. In fact, I see it as outright praiseworthy. When the hell did Hacker News get filled with bean counters who tut-tut about municipal regulations?
  - jacalata 12y ago
    I'm pretty sure he's talking about Uber's practice of booking and cancelling competitor rides as unethical.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - uptown 12y ago
      yep
    - philwelch 12y ago
      OK, I can see now that I misread the comment I was responding to. I would have deleted my comment if I still could.
bedhead 12y ago
I agree, except the problem is that by-and-large, regulated taxi services work perfectly fine. How are they even close to dysfunctional currently? So people can't find a cab in mid-town at 5pm on a rainy day, I mean, come on. I'm pretty darn laissez faire when it comes to regulation, but honestly I think taxi service is done pretty well. Here's what I know. If I paid (heavily) into a system of regulation that worked, only to have someone hack it and basically blow up my asset/income stream, you'd better believe I would push back hard. Aereo, anyone?
- jonknee 12y ago
  Where do you live? Taxis work well in some cities and terribly in others (SF!).
  - bedhead 12y ago
    Chicago. Live and work in the city. Took Uber this morning (pouring rain...I normally ride bike) as a matter of fact. Uber is great...it's just the rideshares that are a problem.
  - whyenot 12y ago
    When I lived in SF I was close enough to a Muni line that I almost never needed to take a taxi. The three times I did, all late at night, the taxis showed up promptly, the fares were reasonable, I felt safe, and I got where I needed to go. I'm not saying taxis in SF aren't "terrible," but it hasn't been my experience.
- dsjoerg 12y ago
  If taxis weren't so dysfunctional, Uber wouldn't have so many happy users and drivers. For example, it used to be a major hassle trying to get a car to pick me up in Park Slope, Brooklyn. I would call the local car service, who would always say "5 minutes". Except it often wasn't 5 minutes and sometimes they didn't come at all. Other car services were OK but took a long time to show up. Now with Uber I can hail an NYC green taxi. Sorry to sound like an Uber ad but it's been working really well for me.
bunderbunder 12y ago
> It's rare that bad business regulations and/or government sponsored monopolies are just, ya know, fixed. Quite often, people need to be shown how bad things have gotten before anything changes. This, and more so. I hate to admit it, but it really is true. I currently live in a city where the cab situation is just awful. And a lot of it is due to awful regulation. Biggest case in point: The city caps the number of permits at only about 400. But you need a separate permit to pick people up at the airport, and the number of those is capped at 50. So getting a ride to the airport is nigh impossible - dispatchers will just refuse to send you a cab - because the vast majority of drivers are not allowed to get a return fare. Uber and Lyft have done a great service by calling public attention to the situation, and so the city council is finally paying attention to it, too. But that's where their contribution stops - they've been actively lobbying against any proposed legislation that would allow metered cab service to improve, for example, and also actively fighting proposed rules that their drivers should be able to pass a basic background check and have a (vaguely) clean driving record. In that sense they're no better than the owners of the cab companies, who also have a vested interest in not seeing the situation for consumers improve. I almost wish there were a Nobel Prize in aphorisms, so that we could award it to them for showing that two wrongs really can make a right.
- couchand 12y ago
  I almost wish there were a Nobel Prize in aphorisms, so that we could award it to them for showing that two wrongs really can make a right. And that you can have your cake and eat it, too!
pdonis 12y ago
Breaking which rules? Breaking the rules that artificially restrict the market for rides? Sure. Breaking the rules that say you don't lie, cheat, or steal? Hmm, not so sure about that.
- rgbrenner 12y ago
  > Breaking the rules that say you don't lie, cheat, or steal? Hmm, not so sure about that. So we have multiple competitors to Uber, on multiple occasions over a prolonged period of time saying Uber employees called in rides they had no intention of taking. So right there we have a lie -- they lied to a competitor. The lie was told to steal time from their competitors employees -- so there's your stealing. And the lie was told because they couldn't compete on level ground with their competitors, and felt the need to cheat (by making their competitors seem like they received a lot of bogus rides-- where Uber does not). You have multiple people, multiple competitors, on multiple occasions making the same allegations against Uber.. and you have Uber outright acknowledging it on (at least) one of those occasions. So there's no question that Uber lies, cheats and steals.
  - argonaut 12y ago
    Hold on a second. Keep in mind that these are allegations (and the allegations of a competitor, no less). I think there's a good chance these allegations are true, but there certainly isn't "no question that Uber lies, cheats and steals."
    - potatolicious 12y ago
      These current claims are allegations - but Uber has done this exact thing before to another competitor and acknowledged it. "no question that Uber lies, cheats, and steals" is still true, by Uber's own admission - though I'm certain they'd like to claim this type of behavior isn't lying/cheating/stealing.
  - timtas 12y ago
    I cannot resist to point out that your assertion that "Uber lies, cheats and steals" rests entirely on logical fallacies. Let's stipulate your one assertion of fact, that Uber acknowledged that on one occasion an employee called in rides they had no intention of taking. From that one fact you jump to a Hasty Generalization [1]. We cannot admit your other evidence that "multiple competitors" made the same or similar claim because it's plain Argumentum Ad Populum [2]. Everything else is supposition and innuendo. Please note, I'm not saying it ain't so, just that you did not support it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
rmc 12y ago
Sometimes not. Ireland used to have a very limited number of taxi licences (as they were called), that could be worth €80,000. Then they deregulated it and now anyone can get a licence for ~€250. There are now thousands of taxis during busy periods.
- CalRobert 12y ago
  I was really surprised by the easy availability and affordability of cabs here in Dublin. I used the €25 free credit from Uber and promptly uninstalled the app, but mostly because the CEO seems like an asshole (this is going to get downvoted, but whatever. I hate knowing my money is going to a major douchebag.)
  - Ygg2 12y ago
    You said app. Do you own an iPhone? Or an Apple product?
    - CalRobert 12y ago
      No, Android. App being short for "application" (or in some cases "appetizer"), I do not recognize Apple's claim to the word. If this isn't what you were referring to, please elaborate.
  - markc 12y ago
    They're everywhere all right, way too many it seems, but most of the Dublin cabs I rode in were 15 y.o. econobox beaters on their last legs, ratty, loud, no A.C., gruff drivers. 10 Euro for 10 minute ride - meh. My last Uber ride (Boston) showed up under 3 minutes from when I requested it, driver loaded all our luggage, drove a brand new full-size sedan with leather, great stereo, A.C., great ride, spankin clean, twice the distance - to the airport! - for about $5 more. No comparison. Didn't know Uber ethics were questionable, but I was very happy to pay my driver for a great ride and great service.
    - rmc 12y ago
      Air conditioning is not common in a country that calls 20 degrees a heatwave. Fares are set by the government, and includes a ~€5 starting price (so short journeys have a higher price). "Gruff" is accurate. Though usually the white irish drivers are horrifically racist.
gioele 12y ago
> with the general full support of the public Often the public has full support for causes that will bite it back in the long term.

uptown 12y ago

Breaking the rules doesn't require you to knee-cap your competition - but it says a lot about the ethics of your business. I wouldn't entrust my safety to a company that's so flagrant about their ethics.

SamReidHughes 12y ago
This is just nonsensical. You're talking about getting a ride in a car.
- thesteamboat 12y ago
  Which is, statistically speaking, one of the most dangerous things you do every day.
  - bithive123 12y ago
    Right, and when there are statistics showing that Uber drivers pose a greater danger to their passengers than any other road hazards created by unethical companies then the sentiment will be meaningful.
    - sliverstorm 12y ago
      I don't need statistics to elect not to put my life in somebody's hands.
      - TeMPOraL 12y ago
        That's also wrong, that "somebody" might be much more experienced in driving than you. One of the big problems with drivers (and humans in general) is the irrational feeling that being in control means being safer.
        sliverstorm 12y ago
        Sure, they might be. But why would I assume they are?
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        If we're talking about taxi drivers, it's reasonable to assume they're more experienced because they spent more hours on the road (unless, of course, you drive more than they do).
        sliverstorm 12y ago
        Sorry, I was unclear. What I was thinking about was, whether I would be safe with them is hard to assume. - They probably have more experience behind the wheel, but they also have different incentives. - Time behind the wheel doesn't automatically mean more skilled/safe. There's plenty of reasons I could be safer in a cab, but also plenty of reasons I wouldn't assume that.
      - bithive123 12y ago
        Except you don't really have a choice given that we all share the roads.
        sliverstorm 12y ago
philwelch 12y ago
Violating regulations which, in themselves, are against the public interest? I don't see that as unethical. In fact, I see it as outright praiseworthy. When the hell did Hacker News get filled with bean counters who tut-tut about municipal regulations?
- jacalata 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure he's talking about Uber's practice of booking and cancelling competitor rides as unethical.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - uptown 12y ago
    yep
  - philwelch 12y ago
    OK, I can see now that I misread the comment I was responding to. I would have deleted my comment if I still could.

bedhead 12y ago

I agree, except the problem is that by-and-large, regulated taxi services work perfectly fine. How are they even close to dysfunctional currently? So people can't find a cab in mid-town at 5pm on a rainy day, I mean, come on. I'm pretty darn laissez faire when it comes to regulation, but honestly I think taxi service is done pretty well. Here's what I know. If I paid (heavily) into a system of regulation that worked, only to have someone hack it and basically blow up my asset/income stream, you'd better believe I would push back hard. Aereo, anyone?

jonknee 12y ago
Where do you live? Taxis work well in some cities and terribly in others (SF!).
- bedhead 12y ago
  Chicago. Live and work in the city. Took Uber this morning (pouring rain...I normally ride bike) as a matter of fact. Uber is great...it's just the rideshares that are a problem.
- whyenot 12y ago
  When I lived in SF I was close enough to a Muni line that I almost never needed to take a taxi. The three times I did, all late at night, the taxis showed up promptly, the fares were reasonable, I felt safe, and I got where I needed to go. I'm not saying taxis in SF aren't "terrible," but it hasn't been my experience.
dsjoerg 12y ago
If taxis weren't so dysfunctional, Uber wouldn't have so many happy users and drivers. For example, it used to be a major hassle trying to get a car to pick me up in Park Slope, Brooklyn. I would call the local car service, who would always say "5 minutes". Except it often wasn't 5 minutes and sometimes they didn't come at all. Other car services were OK but took a long time to show up. Now with Uber I can hail an NYC green taxi. Sorry to sound like an Uber ad but it's been working really well for me.

bunderbunder 12y ago

> It's rare that bad business regulations and/or government sponsored monopolies are just, ya know, fixed. Quite often, people need to be shown how bad things have gotten before anything changes. This, and more so. I hate to admit it, but it really is true. I currently live in a city where the cab situation is just awful. And a lot of it is due to awful regulation. Biggest case in point: The city caps the number of permits at only about 400. But you need a separate permit to pick people up at the airport, and the number of those is capped at 50. So getting a ride to the airport is nigh impossible - dispatchers will just refuse to send you a cab - because the vast majority of drivers are not allowed to get a return fare. Uber and Lyft have done a great service by calling public attention to the situation, and so the city council is finally paying attention to it, too. But that's where their contribution stops - they've been actively lobbying against any proposed legislation that would allow metered cab service to improve, for example, and also actively fighting proposed rules that their drivers should be able to pass a basic background check and have a (vaguely) clean driving record. In that sense they're no better than the owners of the cab companies, who also have a vested interest in not seeing the situation for consumers improve. I almost wish there were a Nobel Prize in aphorisms, so that we could award it to them for showing that two wrongs really can make a right.

couchand 12y ago
I almost wish there were a Nobel Prize in aphorisms, so that we could award it to them for showing that two wrongs really can make a right. And that you can have your cake and eat it, too!

pdonis 12y ago

Breaking which rules? Breaking the rules that artificially restrict the market for rides? Sure. Breaking the rules that say you don't lie, cheat, or steal? Hmm, not so sure about that.

rgbrenner 12y ago
> Breaking the rules that say you don't lie, cheat, or steal? Hmm, not so sure about that. So we have multiple competitors to Uber, on multiple occasions over a prolonged period of time saying Uber employees called in rides they had no intention of taking. So right there we have a lie -- they lied to a competitor. The lie was told to steal time from their competitors employees -- so there's your stealing. And the lie was told because they couldn't compete on level ground with their competitors, and felt the need to cheat (by making their competitors seem like they received a lot of bogus rides-- where Uber does not). You have multiple people, multiple competitors, on multiple occasions making the same allegations against Uber.. and you have Uber outright acknowledging it on (at least) one of those occasions. So there's no question that Uber lies, cheats and steals.
- argonaut 12y ago
  Hold on a second. Keep in mind that these are allegations (and the allegations of a competitor, no less). I think there's a good chance these allegations are true, but there certainly isn't "no question that Uber lies, cheats and steals."
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    These current claims are allegations - but Uber has done this exact thing before to another competitor and acknowledged it. "no question that Uber lies, cheats, and steals" is still true, by Uber's own admission - though I'm certain they'd like to claim this type of behavior isn't lying/cheating/stealing.
- timtas 12y ago
  I cannot resist to point out that your assertion that "Uber lies, cheats and steals" rests entirely on logical fallacies. Let's stipulate your one assertion of fact, that Uber acknowledged that on one occasion an employee called in rides they had no intention of taking. From that one fact you jump to a Hasty Generalization [1]. We cannot admit your other evidence that "multiple competitors" made the same or similar claim because it's plain Argumentum Ad Populum [2]. Everything else is supposition and innuendo. Please note, I'm not saying it ain't so, just that you did not support it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

rmc 12y ago

Sometimes not. Ireland used to have a very limited number of taxi licences (as they were called), that could be worth €80,000. Then they deregulated it and now anyone can get a licence for ~€250. There are now thousands of taxis during busy periods.

CalRobert 12y ago
I was really surprised by the easy availability and affordability of cabs here in Dublin. I used the €25 free credit from Uber and promptly uninstalled the app, but mostly because the CEO seems like an asshole (this is going to get downvoted, but whatever. I hate knowing my money is going to a major douchebag.)
- Ygg2 12y ago
  You said app. Do you own an iPhone? Or an Apple product?
  - CalRobert 12y ago
    No, Android. App being short for "application" (or in some cases "appetizer"), I do not recognize Apple's claim to the word. If this isn't what you were referring to, please elaborate.
- markc 12y ago
  They're everywhere all right, way too many it seems, but most of the Dublin cabs I rode in were 15 y.o. econobox beaters on their last legs, ratty, loud, no A.C., gruff drivers. 10 Euro for 10 minute ride - meh. My last Uber ride (Boston) showed up under 3 minutes from when I requested it, driver loaded all our luggage, drove a brand new full-size sedan with leather, great stereo, A.C., great ride, spankin clean, twice the distance - to the airport! - for about $5 more. No comparison. Didn't know Uber ethics were questionable, but I was very happy to pay my driver for a great ride and great service.
  - rmc 12y ago
    Air conditioning is not common in a country that calls 20 degrees a heatwave. Fares are set by the government, and includes a ~€5 starting price (so short journeys have a higher price). "Gruff" is accurate. Though usually the white irish drivers are horrifically racist.

gioele 12y ago

> with the general full support of the public Often the public has full support for causes that will bite it back in the long term.