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But how far do you stretch this? The same argument could be made for many types of manual labor and blue-collar work. I would argue even prostitution and sellin

by imjk 12y ago

But how far do you stretch this? The same argument could be made for many types of manual labor and blue-collar work. I would argue even prostitution and selling organs are far apart on the spectrum.

rayiner 12y ago
You can stretch this quite far, but that's besides the point. Just because it's hard to draw a line doesn't mean that we can't recognize particularly debasing forms of "voluntary" labor.
- walshemj 12y ago
  Like reality TV shows amen brother
- makomk 12y ago
  The evidence so far suggests that no, we can't recognise particularly debasing forms of "voluntary" labour. For example, prostitution gets almost all the criticism, despite being one of the few jobs that lets workers can seize control of their own working conditions and avoid the kind of capitalist abuses this article talks about. Imagine what it would take for someone to gain control of almost all prostitution in the United States, as the WWE did with pro wrestling. (In fact, I can even remember someone arguing in a previous HN discussion that because minimum-wage work was so bad, anyone who chose prostitution as an alternative to it was coerced and therefore we should outlaw prostitution - rather than the abusive minimum-wage work.)
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    > despite being one of the few jobs that lets workers can seize control of their own working conditions and avoid the kind of capitalist abuses this article talks about. The vast majority of prostitutes can no more choose their own working conditions than any other working stiff. Pushed out onto the streets by poverty, prey to sociopathic men, the average prostitute is mired in a dangerous, destructive, difficult-to-escape lifestyle that destroys her health and vitality. The recent move towards Internet-enabled prostitution that empowers the working girl is very much an aberration. For an introduction to this topic, pick up Iceberg Slim's Pimp. http://www.amazon.com/Pimp-Story-Life-Iceberg-Slim-ebook/dp/B0043RSK9E http://www.amazon.com/Pimp-Story-Life-Iceberg-Slim-ebook/dp/...
- pessimizer 12y ago
  So sex work is more debasing than cleaning toilets for a wage that wouldn't feed a 5 year old? I think we should draw a line at making arguments with scare quotes.

by imjk 12y ago

But how far do you stretch this? The same argument could be made for many types of manual labor and blue-collar work. I would argue even prostitution and selling organs are far apart on the spectrum.

rayiner 12y ago

You can stretch this quite far, but that's besides the point. Just because it's hard to draw a line doesn't mean that we can't recognize particularly debasing forms of "voluntary" labor.

walshemj 12y ago
Like reality TV shows amen brother
makomk 12y ago
The evidence so far suggests that no, we can't recognise particularly debasing forms of "voluntary" labour. For example, prostitution gets almost all the criticism, despite being one of the few jobs that lets workers can seize control of their own working conditions and avoid the kind of capitalist abuses this article talks about. Imagine what it would take for someone to gain control of almost all prostitution in the United States, as the WWE did with pro wrestling. (In fact, I can even remember someone arguing in a previous HN discussion that because minimum-wage work was so bad, anyone who chose prostitution as an alternative to it was coerced and therefore we should outlaw prostitution - rather than the abusive minimum-wage work.)
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  > despite being one of the few jobs that lets workers can seize control of their own working conditions and avoid the kind of capitalist abuses this article talks about. The vast majority of prostitutes can no more choose their own working conditions than any other working stiff. Pushed out onto the streets by poverty, prey to sociopathic men, the average prostitute is mired in a dangerous, destructive, difficult-to-escape lifestyle that destroys her health and vitality. The recent move towards Internet-enabled prostitution that empowers the working girl is very much an aberration. For an introduction to this topic, pick up Iceberg Slim's Pimp. http://www.amazon.com/Pimp-Story-Life-Iceberg-Slim-ebook/dp/B0043RSK9E http://www.amazon.com/Pimp-Story-Life-Iceberg-Slim-ebook/dp/...
pessimizer 12y ago
So sex work is more debasing than cleaning toilets for a wage that wouldn't feed a 5 year old? I think we should draw a line at making arguments with scare quotes.