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Devil's advocate, which is why I have this account: why is it not a gender equality issue that the sons are expected to care for their parents and not the daug

Devil's advocate, which is why I have this account: why is it not a gender equality issue that the sons are expected to care for their parents and not the daughters? I'm not saying everything is hunky-dory in India. I'm saying that if someone thinks the fix is "Oh just apply Americanism in this particular aspect" then that someone is naive.

fchollet 12y ago
It is definitely a gender equality issue, but you have to understand that it's simply the other side of that same coin that is generally presented as "women are not equally respected in India". There is a universal correlation between responsibility and respect (and between responsibility and the share of resources that one receives), across all cultures, all organizations, etc. So if in a certain culture men / boys are given higher responsibilities, such as having to provide for their family, then they are automatically attributed more respect and a larger share of power and resources. The answer, however naive and simplistic it may seem, is to distribute responsibility equally, for instance by expecting both genders to provide for their families. Respect cannot but follow. This is why giving women access to all kinds of jobs is a key issue.
- jovrtn 12y ago
  None of what you said is in any way anthropologically sound.
  - fchollet 12y ago
    The best kind of HN comments: - are one line long - provide categorical judgments of absolute negativity - originate "from above", from an authority figure with a much higher intelligence and much better understanding of the topic - provide no information or arguments whatsoever Pretty nice example right there.
    - fasteo 12y ago
      Fully agree; more formally he is doing - at least - a couple of logical fallacies: 1. Ad Hominem, that is, a personal attack. 2. Appeal authority, although in this case he did not even mention a specific authority.
      - mseebach 12y ago
        It's not an ad hominem. "You're not an anthropologist, so what you said is wrong" would have been an ad hominem. The GP actually attacks the argument, although somewhat incompletely (to be polite). EDIT: The authority is actually named, it's "anthropology".
      - jovrtn 12y ago
        1. Saying someone said something is a personal attack? Let me rephrase: "The textual information that became visible to me once the reply button was pressed on your computer" — or is my use of 'your' still out-of-bounds? 2. I didn't include enough detail in my post to actually conclude whether my appeal to authority is fallacious, since that entirely depends on in what manner I'm citing the authority. On the other hand, the post I responded to contained implicit appeals to supposed authoritative information ("There is a universal correlation...", emphasis mine) and the subsequent conclusions based on that authority.
      - Dewie 12y ago
        1. No. There was no personal attack, and no fallacious reasoning from any personal attack. 2) An intellectual field is a very abstract form of authority, in this context.
    - jovrtn 12y ago
      I thought it was pretty self-evident that torpedoed your entire comment by claiming 'universal correlation' across all cultures and organizations—was any further response to that really necessary? You're throwing around gigantic assumptions that don't bear up under even the most minor investigation into the nature of power and respect cross-culturally.
      - 12y ago
_nedR 12y ago
Because the daughter is busy taking care of her in-laws. Yep.. the system pretty much sucks. Source: Am Indian.
nilsimsa 12y ago
The dowry system has already been illegal by law in India for 60 years but of course it is not well enforced. Secondly due to family dynamics, things are not equally divided as you might think. It maybe the oldest son that gets the property but another son who takes care of the parents. It maybe a daughter who is the caring one while the sons go of on their own.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Even in US its traditional for bride's family to pay for the wedding. That's not appreciably different from a dowry.
  - filmgirlcw 12y ago
    Yeah it is. First, the bride paying for the wedding may be tradition, but it isn't absolute. In other words, in the United States, you won't see two people NOT get married because the wife's family can't afford a wedding. If your culture expects a dowry, what you can afford may influence who you are allowed to marry or whether a marriage can happen or not. Second, the tradition of the bride's family paying in the U.S. has significantly lessened over the years. More young people pay for their own weddings or share the cost with their parents. My parents's paid for the bulk of my small wedding (which despite being deliberately small and my hack of avoiding having to pay for the location, was still probably $20k once my dress, the reception, airfare/hotel for my parents and sister, flowers, photos and other assorted pre-wedding meals were dealt with -- weddings are just fucking expensive), and were happy to do it (and were happy they were able to do it), but if they would have been unable to cover the bill, my husband and I -- or his family -- would have stepped in, no questions asked. Like, it wasn't even a concern.
- known 12y ago
  Can poverty be declared illegal by law? http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2014/07/11/hunger-in-india-the-numbers/ http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2014/07/11/hunger-in-india-the-...
bdevani 12y ago
Women are also expected to care for their parents in India, but the definition of 'parents' varies. If you're a widow and your husband dies, you will be required to take care of your in-laws for the rest of their lives, and this is often not very pretty. If you are unmarried and thus, by most Indian standards, live at home, you will be required to take care of your aging parents exclusively (minus financial matters), which also is often not very pretty. Sons are expected to take care of their parents in terms of spending money. Daughters are not b/c quite frankly, they do not have exclusive control of any money in this system. Instead they are expected to wait on them -- and the rest of the family -- by cleaning, cooking, etc.
- known 12y ago
  http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/16/why-honor-killings-happen/ http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/16/why-honor-kill...

fchollet 12y ago

It is definitely a gender equality issue, but you have to understand that it's simply the other side of that same coin that is generally presented as "women are not equally respected in India". There is a universal correlation between responsibility and respect (and between responsibility and the share of resources that one receives), across all cultures, all organizations, etc. So if in a certain culture men / boys are given higher responsibilities, such as having to provide for their family, then they are automatically attributed more respect and a larger share of power and resources. The answer, however naive and simplistic it may seem, is to distribute responsibility equally, for instance by expecting both genders to provide for their families. Respect cannot but follow. This is why giving women access to all kinds of jobs is a key issue.

jovrtn 12y ago
None of what you said is in any way anthropologically sound.
- fchollet 12y ago
  The best kind of HN comments: - are one line long - provide categorical judgments of absolute negativity - originate "from above", from an authority figure with a much higher intelligence and much better understanding of the topic - provide no information or arguments whatsoever Pretty nice example right there.
  - fasteo 12y ago
    Fully agree; more formally he is doing - at least - a couple of logical fallacies: 1. Ad Hominem, that is, a personal attack. 2. Appeal authority, although in this case he did not even mention a specific authority.
    - mseebach 12y ago
      It's not an ad hominem. "You're not an anthropologist, so what you said is wrong" would have been an ad hominem. The GP actually attacks the argument, although somewhat incompletely (to be polite). EDIT: The authority is actually named, it's "anthropology".
    - jovrtn 12y ago
      1. Saying someone said something is a personal attack? Let me rephrase: "The textual information that became visible to me once the reply button was pressed on your computer" — or is my use of 'your' still out-of-bounds? 2. I didn't include enough detail in my post to actually conclude whether my appeal to authority is fallacious, since that entirely depends on in what manner I'm citing the authority. On the other hand, the post I responded to contained implicit appeals to supposed authoritative information ("There is a universal correlation...", emphasis mine) and the subsequent conclusions based on that authority.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      1. No. There was no personal attack, and no fallacious reasoning from any personal attack. 2) An intellectual field is a very abstract form of authority, in this context.
  - jovrtn 12y ago
    I thought it was pretty self-evident that torpedoed your entire comment by claiming 'universal correlation' across all cultures and organizations—was any further response to that really necessary? You're throwing around gigantic assumptions that don't bear up under even the most minor investigation into the nature of power and respect cross-culturally.
    - 12y ago

_nedR 12y ago

Because the daughter is busy taking care of her in-laws. Yep.. the system pretty much sucks. Source: Am Indian.

nilsimsa 12y ago

The dowry system has already been illegal by law in India for 60 years but of course it is not well enforced. Secondly due to family dynamics, things are not equally divided as you might think. It maybe the oldest son that gets the property but another son who takes care of the parents. It maybe a daughter who is the caring one while the sons go of on their own.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Even in US its traditional for bride's family to pay for the wedding. That's not appreciably different from a dowry.
- filmgirlcw 12y ago
  Yeah it is. First, the bride paying for the wedding may be tradition, but it isn't absolute. In other words, in the United States, you won't see two people NOT get married because the wife's family can't afford a wedding. If your culture expects a dowry, what you can afford may influence who you are allowed to marry or whether a marriage can happen or not. Second, the tradition of the bride's family paying in the U.S. has significantly lessened over the years. More young people pay for their own weddings or share the cost with their parents. My parents's paid for the bulk of my small wedding (which despite being deliberately small and my hack of avoiding having to pay for the location, was still probably $20k once my dress, the reception, airfare/hotel for my parents and sister, flowers, photos and other assorted pre-wedding meals were dealt with -- weddings are just fucking expensive), and were happy to do it (and were happy they were able to do it), but if they would have been unable to cover the bill, my husband and I -- or his family -- would have stepped in, no questions asked. Like, it wasn't even a concern.
known 12y ago
Can poverty be declared illegal by law? http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2014/07/11/hunger-in-india-the-numbers/ http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2014/07/11/hunger-in-india-the-...

bdevani 12y ago

Women are also expected to care for their parents in India, but the definition of 'parents' varies. If you're a widow and your husband dies, you will be required to take care of your in-laws for the rest of their lives, and this is often not very pretty. If you are unmarried and thus, by most Indian standards, live at home, you will be required to take care of your aging parents exclusively (minus financial matters), which also is often not very pretty. Sons are expected to take care of their parents in terms of spending money. Daughters are not b/c quite frankly, they do not have exclusive control of any money in this system. Instead they are expected to wait on them -- and the rest of the family -- by cleaning, cooking, etc.

known 12y ago
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/16/why-honor-killings-happen/ http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/16/why-honor-kill...