4 ms·

After having explored "new technologies" since my graduation in 99, I paused myself and has started moving back in time, discovering things like Lisp, Smalltalk

by tx 19y ago

After having explored "new technologies" since my graduation in 99, I paused myself and has started moving back in time, discovering things like Lisp, Smalltalk, vim and bash. I picked up Python and rediscovered a beauty of a simple text file without XML garbage. All of that feels very "fresh" to me after years with COM-ActiveX/Win32/XML/XSLT/XPath/.NET and other "ex-new" tech. Besides, what is "new"? MVC has been something of revelation to most web "engineers". In fact (or maybe it comes with age) I started to dislike new stuff, like Flash/Flex/Air. I see a great danger of "web runtime" being controlled by a company. If they won't stop, Adobe will soon become "Microsoft of the Web" because they'll be controlling "Web OS". This is why I want AIR to fail and I hope that more web applications stick to HTML/CSS/JavaScript as opposed to moving to Adobe world. For same reasons I always stayed away from Java. Same applies to Silverlight. I do like D though (the language). But the author made two crucial mistakes that will inevitably hurt this beautiful systems programming language: he picked a name that does not work with search engines at all, and he decided to control too much - won't even let other people to distribute binaries of his compilers.

jey 19y ago
"I do like D though (the language). But the author made two crucial mistakes that will inevitably hurt this beautiful systems programming language: he picked a name that does not work with search engines at all, and he decided to control too much - won't even let other people to distribute binaries of his compilers." As a recovering C++ zealot, I totally agree that D is a cool language. "D language" or "Digital Mars D" does turn up the right hits on google. :) There are free implementations of the D language, e.g. there's a front-end for GCC. And the source code to the Digital Mars front-end for D is available under a GPL and Artistic License dual-licensing scheme.
- tx 19y ago
  I know, but his draconian attitude towards binaries is hurting D. For example (AFAIK) there isn't a single msi-installer for Windows novices. You may suggest that D isn't for them because "real programmers" use Linux, but I'd argue that "hotness" of a language largely depends on its popularity among youngest and most curious and enthusiastic users. If a kid who's got a Dell/Vista laptop for Christmas decides to "become a programmer", he won't be doing it in D after visiting digital mars site - I guarantee you that. He's got two weird zip files up there and it took even me a while to figure out what goes where.
  - nailer 19y ago
    I'd actually suggest that real programmers expect non-Microsoft languages to be Open Source, eg, without restrictions on binaries.
  - gregwebs 19y ago
    I don't think the difficulty of installing a zip file is going to stop many programmers from using D. Anyone who has a real problem with closed binaries will be using gdc on linux. The libraries are open source on any platform, which is really what people care about. D is not targeted at kids, and anyone who wants to learn programming would be well served to start with a different, more powerful language.
birdman 19y ago
It's a little harsh to compare Adobe to Microsoft. They were friendly to the open source community by open sourcing Flex. And as far as controlling the runtime goes, that does have some risks going forward as you say, but it also has the benefit of allowing cross-platform web development largely free of browser-compatibility issues. Which is nice.
- Tichy 19y ago
  Um, so just release a small open source teaser, and everything is peachy again? I think not.
- nailer 19y ago
  At least with Java, you had multiple working implementations of the VM from multiple vendors. With the Flash VM, there's only Adobe's VM, and they've made no indications of opening the code anytime soon.
  - Elfan 19y ago
    What about Gnash or Swfdec? A free Flash player seems to be high enough enough priority that one will have feature parity with Adobe "soon".
- chaostheory 19y ago
  i think they did it more b/c they were threatened (by Open Laszlo - an earlier and more mature flash generator) rather than being friendly...
gruseom 19y ago
I relate to this a lot. It took me a long time to discover Lisp and Smalltalk, and how far superior they are to anything I'd previously seen, because I was so busy with newer, more "advanced" technologies. I simply never imagined that the "industry" could be so massively wrong. But when you factor in economics and psychology this begins to look less strange. The demand for software far exceeds the supply of good programmers, so the industry is overwhelmingly skewed toward the mediocre to begin with. Most decisions about platforms and languages are made by managers, who look for things like "how many programmers can we hire" to maintain the million-dollar messes their large teams build. Then there are the vendors, whose job is to sell tools to those managers (which has little to do with making the best tools or even tools that work). Remember there's a clear precedent for all of this: COBOL, which for decades was by far the most common language. There's another thing that cuts closer to home. Most programmers, even most /smart/ programmers, are intellectually conservative and reluctant to look beyond what they already know. The smart ones will happily learn something like Java Faces or WPF when it comes out, just like they learned ATL or whatever when it came out; that is, they'll upgrade to the next release of the same old same old. But most will never reflect much on what they're doing and only a handful will ever jump out of the rat's nest. How many of those COBOL programmers ever learned a new language? The vast majority simply retired. Yet I'm sure many of them were smart at what they did. What all of this amounts to is a vast market inefficiency that will almost certainly be supplanted by ways of building software that aren't insane; it's just a process that takes decades (if not centuries - how long did the industrial revolution take to figure out how to really do manufacturing?) I see YC as a conscious move in this game. Given how soul-destroying most software projects are, that's an inspiring development - to see the balance shifting in favor of the creators. I'm grateful that I listened to my intuition that there was something wrong with those "new" and "advanced" technologies. For me as well, it is the depth and simplicity of a Lisp, Smalltalk, or APL that is fresh.

by tx 19y ago

jey 19y ago

"I do like D though (the language). But the author made two crucial mistakes that will inevitably hurt this beautiful systems programming language: he picked a name that does not work with search engines at all, and he decided to control too much - won't even let other people to distribute binaries of his compilers." As a recovering C++ zealot, I totally agree that D is a cool language. "D language" or "Digital Mars D" does turn up the right hits on google. :) There are free implementations of the D language, e.g. there's a front-end for GCC. And the source code to the Digital Mars front-end for D is available under a GPL and Artistic License dual-licensing scheme.

tx 19y ago
I know, but his draconian attitude towards binaries is hurting D. For example (AFAIK) there isn't a single msi-installer for Windows novices. You may suggest that D isn't for them because "real programmers" use Linux, but I'd argue that "hotness" of a language largely depends on its popularity among youngest and most curious and enthusiastic users. If a kid who's got a Dell/Vista laptop for Christmas decides to "become a programmer", he won't be doing it in D after visiting digital mars site - I guarantee you that. He's got two weird zip files up there and it took even me a while to figure out what goes where.
- nailer 19y ago
  I'd actually suggest that real programmers expect non-Microsoft languages to be Open Source, eg, without restrictions on binaries.
- gregwebs 19y ago
  I don't think the difficulty of installing a zip file is going to stop many programmers from using D. Anyone who has a real problem with closed binaries will be using gdc on linux. The libraries are open source on any platform, which is really what people care about. D is not targeted at kids, and anyone who wants to learn programming would be well served to start with a different, more powerful language.

birdman 19y ago

It's a little harsh to compare Adobe to Microsoft. They were friendly to the open source community by open sourcing Flex. And as far as controlling the runtime goes, that does have some risks going forward as you say, but it also has the benefit of allowing cross-platform web development largely free of browser-compatibility issues. Which is nice.

Tichy 19y ago
Um, so just release a small open source teaser, and everything is peachy again? I think not.
nailer 19y ago
At least with Java, you had multiple working implementations of the VM from multiple vendors. With the Flash VM, there's only Adobe's VM, and they've made no indications of opening the code anytime soon.
- Elfan 19y ago
  What about Gnash or Swfdec? A free Flash player seems to be high enough enough priority that one will have feature parity with Adobe "soon".
chaostheory 19y ago
i think they did it more b/c they were threatened (by Open Laszlo - an earlier and more mature flash generator) rather than being friendly...

gruseom 19y ago

I relate to this a lot. It took me a long time to discover Lisp and Smalltalk, and how far superior they are to anything I'd previously seen, because I was so busy with newer, more "advanced" technologies. I simply never imagined that the "industry" could be so massively wrong. But when you factor in economics and psychology this begins to look less strange. The demand for software far exceeds the supply of good programmers, so the industry is overwhelmingly skewed toward the mediocre to begin with. Most decisions about platforms and languages are made by managers, who look for things like "how many programmers can we hire" to maintain the million-dollar messes their large teams build. Then there are the vendors, whose job is to sell tools to those managers (which has little to do with making the best tools or even tools that work). Remember there's a clear precedent for all of this: COBOL, which for decades was by far the most common language. There's another thing that cuts closer to home. Most programmers, even most /smart/ programmers, are intellectually conservative and reluctant to look beyond what they already know. The smart ones will happily learn something like Java Faces or WPF when it comes out, just like they learned ATL or whatever when it came out; that is, they'll upgrade to the next release of the same old same old. But most will never reflect much on what they're doing and only a handful will ever jump out of the rat's nest. How many of those COBOL programmers ever learned a new language? The vast majority simply retired. Yet I'm sure many of them were smart at what they did. What all of this amounts to is a vast market inefficiency that will almost certainly be supplanted by ways of building software that aren't insane; it's just a process that takes decades (if not centuries - how long did the industrial revolution take to figure out how to really do manufacturing?) I see YC as a conscious move in this game. Given how soul-destroying most software projects are, that's an inspiring development - to see the balance shifting in favor of the creators. I'm grateful that I listened to my intuition that there was something wrong with those "new" and "advanced" technologies. For me as well, it is the depth and simplicity of a Lisp, Smalltalk, or APL that is fresh.