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We consider free will important because we like to think we make our decisions based on our own individual identity, rather than physical properties of the univ

We consider free will important because we like to think we make our decisions based on our own individual identity, rather than physical properties of the universe that predetermine what we will do. Even if free will exists, our mechanism for arriving at a decision to do one thing over another thing pretty much needs to be context-dependent - i.e. we make that decision based on some line of reasoning (whether correct or not). At the same time, everything we've experienced and consider to be part of our own individual identities, the stuff that defines our free will, is incorporated as a part of that context. So many people argue that free will and determinism are still pretty much compatible. Nevermind all the other crap we like to pretend doesn't influence our decisions like whatever crazy hormones happen to be elevated at the time.

aaronblohowiak 12y ago
To me, this argument is a strong defense of the "self", but does not address the "free" part at all. It is like saying that a rock is free to weigh more than a marshmallow because of the complicated history that lead it to being this rock.
- dan_bk 12y ago
  Exactly my thought as well. I believe we keep telling us stories about a "free will" because we're afraid of that thought because we misinterpret it. Most people answer unreflected things like "that would be like living in a prison". Also we have learned to judge everything and everyone. How can we expect people to completely drop all kinds of judgement?
  - Tomte 12y ago
    Why would we stop judging?
    - dan_bk 12y ago
      Not sure I understand your question correctly. We should stop judging. Because nobody has been able to show "free will" is more than just another belief (as in religion) and it is therefor no basis for rational discussion. And if free will does not exist, our concepts of "merit" (on the positive side) or "guilt" (on the negative side) are worthless and should be abolished. That's why there should be no judging at all. (Note: No judging does not mean nobody goes to prison for crime. It simply means we must redefine "punishment" as "a neutral sanction" or better: "protection from happening again".)
      - danbruc 12y ago
        Now how do you stop judging without free will?
        dan_bk 12y ago
        That's an easy one: If somebody explains you the reason why judging does not make any sense and you understand it and apply it to your life, then it wasn't "free will". It was causality - you're doing it because of a "variable" (the explanation) that was part of your "system". Obviously, there is a huge number of other variables participating in your decision, not just one, and you could track them on a micro level (molecular) as well as on an macro level (i.e. your family, friends, wealth, etc.).
        danbruc 12y ago
        But without free will nobody can decide to tell you something and influence your future decisions. If there is no free will then watching the universe over time is just like playing back a movie, maybe with some unpredictable plot twists due to randomness. Me writing this comment was predetermined - at least with some probability - since the big bang. All the things humans have done, from fighting wars to writing all the books to inventing and building all the human made things in the world, are predetermined. And while I think that there is no free will trying to imagine that everything around me is the result of a mindless process is more than my poor brain can do and therefore in everyday life I just keep pretending I have free will.
- baddox 12y ago
  If the rock told me that it intuitively perceives itself as being free to weight more than a marshmallow (and I didn't otherwise have reason to believe I was hallucinating), then I would have little trouble conceding that the rock is free to weigh more than a marshmallow.

aaronblohowiak 12y ago

To me, this argument is a strong defense of the "self", but does not address the "free" part at all. It is like saying that a rock is free to weigh more than a marshmallow because of the complicated history that lead it to being this rock.

dan_bk 12y ago
Exactly my thought as well. I believe we keep telling us stories about a "free will" because we're afraid of that thought because we misinterpret it. Most people answer unreflected things like "that would be like living in a prison". Also we have learned to judge everything and everyone. How can we expect people to completely drop all kinds of judgement?
- Tomte 12y ago
  Why would we stop judging?
  - dan_bk 12y ago
    Not sure I understand your question correctly. We should stop judging. Because nobody has been able to show "free will" is more than just another belief (as in religion) and it is therefor no basis for rational discussion. And if free will does not exist, our concepts of "merit" (on the positive side) or "guilt" (on the negative side) are worthless and should be abolished. That's why there should be no judging at all. (Note: No judging does not mean nobody goes to prison for crime. It simply means we must redefine "punishment" as "a neutral sanction" or better: "protection from happening again".)
    - danbruc 12y ago
      Now how do you stop judging without free will?
      - dan_bk 12y ago
        That's an easy one: If somebody explains you the reason why judging does not make any sense and you understand it and apply it to your life, then it wasn't "free will". It was causality - you're doing it because of a "variable" (the explanation) that was part of your "system". Obviously, there is a huge number of other variables participating in your decision, not just one, and you could track them on a micro level (molecular) as well as on an macro level (i.e. your family, friends, wealth, etc.).
        danbruc 12y ago
        But without free will nobody can decide to tell you something and influence your future decisions. If there is no free will then watching the universe over time is just like playing back a movie, maybe with some unpredictable plot twists due to randomness. Me writing this comment was predetermined - at least with some probability - since the big bang. All the things humans have done, from fighting wars to writing all the books to inventing and building all the human made things in the world, are predetermined. And while I think that there is no free will trying to imagine that everything around me is the result of a mindless process is more than my poor brain can do and therefore in everyday life I just keep pretending I have free will.
baddox 12y ago
If the rock told me that it intuitively perceives itself as being free to weight more than a marshmallow (and I didn't otherwise have reason to believe I was hallucinating), then I would have little trouble conceding that the rock is free to weigh more than a marshmallow.