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Nobody wants OpenGL on XBox. If anything, we'd want a PS4/Mantle style hardware level API. In practice since the hardware is so similar between XBox and PS4, th

Nobody wants OpenGL on XBox. If anything, we'd want a PS4/Mantle style hardware level API. In practice since the hardware is so similar between XBox and PS4, the APIs would probably be pretty similar too... On the other hand, the use of Direct3D is a competitive advantage for them. It made ports easier with the XBox 360 and it probably still makes them easier for the XBox One.

shmerl 12y ago
> Nobody wants OpenGL on XBox You mean MS doesn't want it. MS is not everybody though. Xbox is one of the ways they can keep DirectX around in the face of potential competition as you said yourself: > Direct3D is a competitive advantage for them Though I'd call it an anti-competitive advantage.
- maccard 12y ago
  > You mean MS doesn't want it. MS is not everybody though. Xbox is one of the ways they can keep DirectX around in the face of potential competition as you said yourself: As far as I'm aware, devs aren't too keen on it. No other maor consoles are using it anyway, so the X-platform argument doesn't really apply.
  - Pxl_Buzzard 12y ago
    Overall I would say devs aren't keen on either OpenGL or DirectX 11, but between the two DX11 seems to be more well regarded. DirectX 12 looks like a good step forward, but many eyes are following Mantle[1] and Metal[2] to see if they can bring new innovations to market. 1. http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/mantle http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/m... 2. https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documentation/Miscellaneous/Conceptual/MTLProgGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documenta...
    - shmerl 12y ago
      Neither Mantle nor Metal so far achieved any wide acceptance. If AMD can convince other GPU manufactures (like Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm and the rest) to support Mantle this can change. I don't expect Metal to become anything beyond being Apple-only API, so it's not in any way better that MS-only Direct3D, just another walled garden example. Also, Mantle was supposed to be open. Did AMD open it already?
  - shmerl 12y ago
    > As far as I'm aware, devs aren't too keen on it. Because of current market lock-in on DirectX. OpenGL isn't ideal, but it's not much behind. MS however doesn't want it to become better and is scared of more competition from cross platform APIs. Not sure why though. These days lock-in with API is a very dumb method to compete. I think Valve has a good potential to push things forward.
    - pjmlp 12y ago
      The same applies to other game consoles. Regardless of FOSS myths, no console has proper OpenGL[0] support. [0] Yes, not even the PS3.
      - shmerl 12y ago
        Sure, others aren't any better. So Valve has a good chance to give them all a kick. Will they succeed? I hope they will. Strong competition can force current consoles makers to support OpenGL, same as happened with WebGL and IE.
        pjmlp 12y ago
        Have you ever attended a GDC or used console devkits? Valve will have to do lots of work just to try to pull off the same quality of developer support console vendors offer.
        shmerl 12y ago
        >Valve will have to do lots of work just to try to pull off the same quality of developer support console vendors offer. Let them. Improving developers' tools around OpenGL was one of their key plans in this effort. So far they look serious about it.
    - cwyers 12y ago
      Or because OpenGL is a relatively high-level API, and most console game developers don't want or need a high-level API that abstracts the underlying hardware, because every PS4 in the wild has the exact same hardware, so you can write two versions of the code and support every PS4 and Xbox One in existence with better performance than if you used OpenGL to write one version of the same code for both.
threeseed 12y ago
Would have to agree. The future of Microsoft is one development platform across Windows, Windows RT, Windows Mobile and XBox. If as a developer I could have one codebase and target all three platforms it would be pretty compelling.
- shmerl 12y ago
  Except that MS is losing ground. Gaming is now spilling to other platforms and Xbox / Windows will be pushed aside with time with more competition. Developers would prefer to have a good common and open API instead of using 10 different proprietary ones.
  - zanny 12y ago
    Then where is the pressure to get opengl on the consoles? In theory right now you could write some engine that used openglES 3 and ran on Android, iOS, OSX, Windows, and Linux. Your only missing parts are the three consoles, none of which show any interest in supporting write once run everywhere. I mean, I know why - it is because the entire console model is license deals, app store cuts, and exclusives. If you could write your games and seamlessly run them everywhere, console manufacturers lose their primary pitch to consumers. Especially since this console generation isn't amazing value hardware wise, you can build a computer as powerful as either for the same price as either. And peripherals are an awful argument, because they are all wifi / bluetooth / usb based, nothing stops these companies from selling their accessories like the Move, Kinect, Wiimote, etc as pc peripherals with open APIs besides their complacency.
    - shmerl 12y ago
      > Then where is the pressure to get opengl on the consoles? Valve is just entering consoles scene. It's too early to call that pressure, but they at least plan to disrupt it. Time will tell. > it is because the entire console model is license deals, app store cuts, and exclusives. Yes, that's why this sick approach needs some serious disruption. Linux gaming looks like one. > if you could write your games and seamlessly run them everywhere, console manufacturers lose their primary pitch to consumers. Exclusivity is a weird pitch. Real pitch of consoles should be in ease of access, usability and user friendliness. > you can build a computer as powerful as either for the same price as either. That's exactly what consoles should be about - plug and play. No building for those who don't want it. All of that doesn't preclude using cross platform technologies. Let console makers compete on hardware (Asus, Dell whoever) and not on locking developers into their walled garden proprietary OS and APIs.

shmerl 12y ago

> Nobody wants OpenGL on XBox You mean MS doesn't want it. MS is not everybody though. Xbox is one of the ways they can keep DirectX around in the face of potential competition as you said yourself: > Direct3D is a competitive advantage for them Though I'd call it an anti-competitive advantage.

maccard 12y ago
> You mean MS doesn't want it. MS is not everybody though. Xbox is one of the ways they can keep DirectX around in the face of potential competition as you said yourself: As far as I'm aware, devs aren't too keen on it. No other maor consoles are using it anyway, so the X-platform argument doesn't really apply.
- Pxl_Buzzard 12y ago
  Overall I would say devs aren't keen on either OpenGL or DirectX 11, but between the two DX11 seems to be more well regarded. DirectX 12 looks like a good step forward, but many eyes are following Mantle[1] and Metal[2] to see if they can bring new innovations to market. 1. http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/mantle http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/m... 2. https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documentation/Miscellaneous/Conceptual/MTLProgGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documenta...
  - shmerl 12y ago
    Neither Mantle nor Metal so far achieved any wide acceptance. If AMD can convince other GPU manufactures (like Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm and the rest) to support Mantle this can change. I don't expect Metal to become anything beyond being Apple-only API, so it's not in any way better that MS-only Direct3D, just another walled garden example. Also, Mantle was supposed to be open. Did AMD open it already?
- shmerl 12y ago
  > As far as I'm aware, devs aren't too keen on it. Because of current market lock-in on DirectX. OpenGL isn't ideal, but it's not much behind. MS however doesn't want it to become better and is scared of more competition from cross platform APIs. Not sure why though. These days lock-in with API is a very dumb method to compete. I think Valve has a good potential to push things forward.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    The same applies to other game consoles. Regardless of FOSS myths, no console has proper OpenGL[0] support. [0] Yes, not even the PS3.
    - shmerl 12y ago
      Sure, others aren't any better. So Valve has a good chance to give them all a kick. Will they succeed? I hope they will. Strong competition can force current consoles makers to support OpenGL, same as happened with WebGL and IE.
      - pjmlp 12y ago
        Have you ever attended a GDC or used console devkits? Valve will have to do lots of work just to try to pull off the same quality of developer support console vendors offer.
        shmerl 12y ago
        >Valve will have to do lots of work just to try to pull off the same quality of developer support console vendors offer. Let them. Improving developers' tools around OpenGL was one of their key plans in this effort. So far they look serious about it.
  - cwyers 12y ago
    Or because OpenGL is a relatively high-level API, and most console game developers don't want or need a high-level API that abstracts the underlying hardware, because every PS4 in the wild has the exact same hardware, so you can write two versions of the code and support every PS4 and Xbox One in existence with better performance than if you used OpenGL to write one version of the same code for both.

threeseed 12y ago

Would have to agree. The future of Microsoft is one development platform across Windows, Windows RT, Windows Mobile and XBox. If as a developer I could have one codebase and target all three platforms it would be pretty compelling.

shmerl 12y ago
Except that MS is losing ground. Gaming is now spilling to other platforms and Xbox / Windows will be pushed aside with time with more competition. Developers would prefer to have a good common and open API instead of using 10 different proprietary ones.
- zanny 12y ago
  Then where is the pressure to get opengl on the consoles? In theory right now you could write some engine that used openglES 3 and ran on Android, iOS, OSX, Windows, and Linux. Your only missing parts are the three consoles, none of which show any interest in supporting write once run everywhere. I mean, I know why - it is because the entire console model is license deals, app store cuts, and exclusives. If you could write your games and seamlessly run them everywhere, console manufacturers lose their primary pitch to consumers. Especially since this console generation isn't amazing value hardware wise, you can build a computer as powerful as either for the same price as either. And peripherals are an awful argument, because they are all wifi / bluetooth / usb based, nothing stops these companies from selling their accessories like the Move, Kinect, Wiimote, etc as pc peripherals with open APIs besides their complacency.
  - shmerl 12y ago
    > Then where is the pressure to get opengl on the consoles? Valve is just entering consoles scene. It's too early to call that pressure, but they at least plan to disrupt it. Time will tell. > it is because the entire console model is license deals, app store cuts, and exclusives. Yes, that's why this sick approach needs some serious disruption. Linux gaming looks like one. > if you could write your games and seamlessly run them everywhere, console manufacturers lose their primary pitch to consumers. Exclusivity is a weird pitch. Real pitch of consoles should be in ease of access, usability and user friendliness. > you can build a computer as powerful as either for the same price as either. That's exactly what consoles should be about - plug and play. No building for those who don't want it. All of that doesn't preclude using cross platform technologies. Let console makers compete on hardware (Asus, Dell whoever) and not on locking developers into their walled garden proprietary OS and APIs.