3 ms·

There are some forms of sugar-daddying which are not so different than prostitution. However, women who marry or date wealthy and elderly men do not necessarily

There are some forms of sugar-daddying which are not so different than prostitution. However, women who marry or date wealthy and elderly men do not necessarily commit themselves to prostitution. You are right to argue that there is a spectrum. I do not see how it negates a moral statement against punters. You are also right to argue that I'm on one side of the extreme, it is radical to call for the abolition of prostitution. I do not consider it as a pejorative description. I would just like to remind you that the faction in the antebellum Republican Party who called for the abolition of slavery was called the radical wing, and was considered extremist by Lincoln himself as well as many other northerners who could not imagine the emancipation of the slaves.

dinkumthinkum 12y ago
So you are calling for complete abolishment and criminalization transaction that can occur between consenting adults and you liken your position to that of the slavery abolitioners? It's very easy to take a radical position and just appeal to "well these people thought the world was flat, but look how silly they are now" type observations but I don't think it strengthen to position. Slavery was the forcing people to work and leave their families against their, amongst other things. When people argue against the criminalization of prostitution, they are not in support of traffickers. It's not radical to say people should not be forced to have sex, even if you think this makes you like Lincoln.
- vivianward 12y ago
  I'm calling to the criminalization of the client, meaning prostitution would not be held illegal but buying sex would be prohibited by law. My argument was not prostitution equals slavery per se. My point was that the term radical refers to the abolition of a phenomena and therefore should be considered in relation to that phenomena and not by itself. If you believe that prostitution, or even some forms of it, is a wonderful thing that promotes human dignity then I can see why my radical stand against it seems bad to you. I think prostitution harms the people in it and harms us and therefore taking measures like legislation in hope of a radical change seems to me to be reasonable and positive, even if there is a very tiny minority among the people in prostitution who claim to have chosen freely with their eyes wide open.
  - c23gooey 12y ago
    So you believe prostitution harms the people in it, so your remedy is to cause further harm by sending the clients to jail? If there are women being forced into sex then there are laws already to protect them. Why do you feel its necessary to tell other people how to live their lives? Who are you to decide whether a woman and a man can agree to exchange money and sex?
    - vivianward 12y ago
      - "so your remedy is to cause further harm by sending the clients to jail?" - The goal is not to imprison men, it's to change the cultural environment which permits and supports prostitution. The sanctions vary and incarceration is not the first priority, other sanctions include fines and participation in workshops in which the clients hear about the damages that prostitution inflicts on the people in it. - "If there are women being forced into sex then there are laws already to protect them" - According to a comprehensive study held in numerous countries, "71% of respondents had been physically assaulted while in prostitution, 63% had been raped, and 68% were said to meet the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. ... 89% of the respondents wished to leave prostitution, but lacked the means to do so."[1] - "Why do you feel its necessary to tell other people how to live their lives?" Liberty is the freedom to live your life however you choose as long as you do not harm others. Clients harm people in prostitution. -"Who are you to decide whether a woman and a man can agree to exchange money and sex?" I'm someone who cares about the women, men and children in prostitution. Who are you and who do you care about? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley#Studies_of_sex_workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley#Studies_of_sex_... [there's a link to the full study]
      - throwitout2345 12y ago
        Not that I necessarily disagree with your points but, I'm sure you're aware the wiki article you referenced also mentions: "Her prostitution studies have been criticized by sociologist Ronald Weitzer, for alleged problems with their methodology. In particular, Weitzer was critical of what he viewed as the lack of transparency in how the interviews were conducted and how the responses were translated into statistical data, as well as the sampling bias toward highly marginalized groups of sex workers (such as street workers) and for the way the findings of Farley's studies have been more generally applied to demonstrate the harm of sex work of all kinds. A 2002 study by Chudakov, et al. used Farley's PTSD instrument to measure the rate of post-traumatic stress disorder among sex workers in Israel. Of the fifty five consenting women interviewed, 17% met the criteria for PTSD, compared to Farley's 68% figure. Farley's critics also claim that her findings are heavily influenced by her radical feminist ideology. Farley has also been criticized for accepting significant funding from anti-prostitution organizations. She has acknowledged that 30% of funding for a prominent research project into prostitution was provided by the United States Department of State Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons, an agency with an outspoken policy which conflates sex work with human trafficking. However, Farley has stated that such funding has not in any way swayed her research, in particular its methods or conclusions."

dinkumthinkum 12y ago

So you are calling for complete abolishment and criminalization transaction that can occur between consenting adults and you liken your position to that of the slavery abolitioners? It's very easy to take a radical position and just appeal to "well these people thought the world was flat, but look how silly they are now" type observations but I don't think it strengthen to position. Slavery was the forcing people to work and leave their families against their, amongst other things. When people argue against the criminalization of prostitution, they are not in support of traffickers. It's not radical to say people should not be forced to have sex, even if you think this makes you like Lincoln.

vivianward 12y ago
I'm calling to the criminalization of the client, meaning prostitution would not be held illegal but buying sex would be prohibited by law. My argument was not prostitution equals slavery per se. My point was that the term radical refers to the abolition of a phenomena and therefore should be considered in relation to that phenomena and not by itself. If you believe that prostitution, or even some forms of it, is a wonderful thing that promotes human dignity then I can see why my radical stand against it seems bad to you. I think prostitution harms the people in it and harms us and therefore taking measures like legislation in hope of a radical change seems to me to be reasonable and positive, even if there is a very tiny minority among the people in prostitution who claim to have chosen freely with their eyes wide open.
- c23gooey 12y ago
  So you believe prostitution harms the people in it, so your remedy is to cause further harm by sending the clients to jail? If there are women being forced into sex then there are laws already to protect them. Why do you feel its necessary to tell other people how to live their lives? Who are you to decide whether a woman and a man can agree to exchange money and sex?
  - vivianward 12y ago
    - "so your remedy is to cause further harm by sending the clients to jail?" - The goal is not to imprison men, it's to change the cultural environment which permits and supports prostitution. The sanctions vary and incarceration is not the first priority, other sanctions include fines and participation in workshops in which the clients hear about the damages that prostitution inflicts on the people in it. - "If there are women being forced into sex then there are laws already to protect them" - According to a comprehensive study held in numerous countries, "71% of respondents had been physically assaulted while in prostitution, 63% had been raped, and 68% were said to meet the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. ... 89% of the respondents wished to leave prostitution, but lacked the means to do so."[1] - "Why do you feel its necessary to tell other people how to live their lives?" Liberty is the freedom to live your life however you choose as long as you do not harm others. Clients harm people in prostitution. -"Who are you to decide whether a woman and a man can agree to exchange money and sex?" I'm someone who cares about the women, men and children in prostitution. Who are you and who do you care about? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley#Studies_of_sex_workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley#Studies_of_sex_... [there's a link to the full study]
    - throwitout2345 12y ago
      Not that I necessarily disagree with your points but, I'm sure you're aware the wiki article you referenced also mentions: "Her prostitution studies have been criticized by sociologist Ronald Weitzer, for alleged problems with their methodology. In particular, Weitzer was critical of what he viewed as the lack of transparency in how the interviews were conducted and how the responses were translated into statistical data, as well as the sampling bias toward highly marginalized groups of sex workers (such as street workers) and for the way the findings of Farley's studies have been more generally applied to demonstrate the harm of sex work of all kinds. A 2002 study by Chudakov, et al. used Farley's PTSD instrument to measure the rate of post-traumatic stress disorder among sex workers in Israel. Of the fifty five consenting women interviewed, 17% met the criteria for PTSD, compared to Farley's 68% figure. Farley's critics also claim that her findings are heavily influenced by her radical feminist ideology. Farley has also been criticized for accepting significant funding from anti-prostitution organizations. She has acknowledged that 30% of funding for a prominent research project into prostitution was provided by the United States Department of State Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons, an agency with an outspoken policy which conflates sex work with human trafficking. However, Farley has stated that such funding has not in any way swayed her research, in particular its methods or conclusions."