9 ms·

47% of applications for our Hacker Retreat were women. Here is how we did it

76 points by AlexeyMK 12y ago

jonleung 12y ago
I like how this article focuses on things you can do now to even the gender balance, rather than just lamenting the broken pipeline.
caser 12y ago
This is what we learned - what did we miss? Anyone else out there with similar or conflicting experiences?
socialengineer 12y ago
+1 rming the picture of four dudes playing foosball
- DanBC 12y ago
  I agree it's not a great picture. One of the things that makes it a poor choice is that one of the people is probably female but she's been cropped almost out of the image.
ankitshah 12y ago
Love how this is tactically oriented and not just an expose of stuff that happened to work.
rickyPanzer 12y ago
awesome work!
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Good work. My only objection is the endorsement of the Geek Feminism Wiki, which is an unreliable source.
- AlexeyMK 12y ago
  Do you mind going into a bit more depth here? The GFW was pretty useful re: the references it pointed us too. What makes it unreliable? (genuinely curious, clearly still learning here)
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    1) The editorial guidelines (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Meta:Editorial_guidelines http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Meta:Editorial_guidelines) state: While citations are preferred wherever possible, we do not require them. Much of our wiki is primary source material, sometimes added anonymously in order to avoid backlash against the whistleblower. Original research is welcome. 2) The Geek Feminism Wiki, although simply referring to itself as "feminist", subscribes to a particular form of third-wave poststructural feminism that is not so much concerned with equity, as it is preoccupied with dubious and subjective gender politics. Indeed, their editorial guidelines outright say "[We]... accept each person's self-reporting of their feelings and lived experiences as valid". Ultimately, this leads to a lot of bias, misrepresentation and is only a specific feminist viewpoint.
    - slvv 12y ago
      Is there an alternative that you think is better? Also, is their "version" of feminism a problem since they're so clear about what it is? It doesn't seem like they're hiding their perspective at all, so readers can decide how to interpret based on that knowledge.
      - makomk 12y ago
        Their version of feminism isn't all that clear at all from the description. Essentially all forms of feminism that revolve around women's "feelings and lived experiences" use them to prop up their underlying ideological beliefs - the only feelings and lived experiences that are accepted are the ones that confirm their ideology. You can see this in the list of out-of-scope items. For example, no "apologia for misogynist, anti-feminist, oppressive, or other harmful actions or ideas" is allowed - in practice this tends to include stuff like having an unfeminine attitude to sex and sexuality, doing sex work, being friends with anyone who does, opposing bans on it, being kinky, or complaining about any bad experiences you've had with other mainstream feminist women including systematic online and offline harassment (which is a serious problem for some groups of women). If you think about the guidelines it's easy to tell they exclude some women's feelings and lived experiences, but there's no way to tell which. The linked page makes it sound like the policy affects oppressors when it's mostly those who are worst off that get screwed.
facepalm 12y ago
How many of the 47% were also feminists?
- Squarel 12y ago
  Feminism meaning a belief that women should be treated equally to men? Hopefully all of them, and the other 53% too.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    No the real feminism, meaning a belief that all women are victims and all men are wannabe rapists who can barely contain themselves. A no harassment policy is a red flag for me because it indicates a negative prejudice against men. But you'll welcome that, because every man who doesn't apply is good for the statistics, right? But on a deeper note, I wondered if the quota was because of the bows to feminist propaganda or merely because of the advertising with women coder groups.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      > A no harassment policy is a red flag for me because it indicates a negative prejudice against men. If saying "no harassment!" feels like an attack against men, that's an indication that you have a horribly negative outlook towards men.
      - facepalm 12y ago
        Well I've never heard men cry for a no harassment policy. Of course it is an attack against men - it implies that men need such policies and firm authority from the organizers to keep their lower instincts in check. But you know - I only tell you how I feel about it. You don't have to care. It's just my personal opinion that to me it would be a turn off. Just like men playing kicker is apparently a turn off to women. Granted even independent of gender it would be a turn off to me, because I don't want to mingle with people who need to be reminded of basic decency. Edit: I can not reply further. I don't think you understand my point at all. But to roll with your example: imagine you read an advertisement for a coding retreat, and the first line says "NO MURDER ALLOWED". Would that make you feel more safe or less safe about attending? Since you are hell bent on disagreeing with me you'll probably claim "more safe", but I am pretty sure in general it would come across a bit weird. You don't need a "don't murder" policy, because it is implied. So why isn't "no harassment" implied? By stating it, you imply that it is not implied, so you are effectively saying your attendants are prone to harass people.
cantastoria 12y ago
Harassment includes verbal comments that reinforce social structures of domination related to gender, gender identity and >expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, age, religion, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. And who gets to determine if I'm doing any of these things? The conference organizers? If I attend this conference, how can they assure me that I won't be at the mercy of conference attendees that suddenly decide I'm harassing them simply because I say something within their vicinity they disagree with a la Adria Richards? Although I guess Richards would have been taken to task for "harassing photography". Although by that point it would have been too late anyway. The problem with these speech codes is that they're just as easily used as a way to silence and shame people who's views differ from those of organizations like geekfeminism (i.e. not radfem). You don't have to be a feminist to treat women respectfully.
- tptacek 12y ago
  This comment has practically nothing to do with the article. As usual, any submission concerning improving the ratio of women to men in our industry immediately becomes a coatrack for digs about "radfem". For those of you who read the comments before clicking through to the article: this one is a list of things an event organizer did to try to boost attendance among women. None of them appear at all controversial. The "code of conduct" section this commenter takes issue with is table stakes at most major conferences. But that doesn't mean rude commenters will miss an opportunity to beat a dead horse.
  - cantastoria 12y ago
    Ah in gallops tptacek on his trusty steed. Dead horse indeed. As usual, any submission concerning improving the ratio of women to men in our industry immediately becomes a coatrack for digs about "radfem". Just because they don't appear controversial to you doesn't make it so. And am I not allowed to take issue with the "table stakes"?
hartator 12y ago
I am going to be downvoted as hell, but what if by doing this, you are excluding some good elements? My experience is there is a reason why the best hackers are fat white dudes with big glasses. You can't artifialy transform them into girls. I also do believe in role models. But you can't make up fake ones.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  > My experience is there is a reason why the best hackers are fat white dudes with big glasses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
  - idlewords 12y ago
    They simply eat the smaller hackers who can see.
    - angersock 12y ago
      tbh this is now basically how google handles acquihires
    - icebraining 12y ago
      As a fat white dude with glasses I approve this.
- idlewords 12y ago
  Which part of what they did, specifically, do you think would exclude fat white dudes? The Hellen Keller quote? Not having the foosball photo? A conference code of conduct? Even granting your premise (which I don't agree with), I can't see where anyone is being excluded.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    A conference code of conduct is an indicator of negative prejudice against men. I wouldn't feel welcome there. Edit: I am not allowed to reply any further. But you all don't get my point. I don't find the rule off putting because I am worried about my right to harass people. I am not interested in harassing people. I am worried about the implied accusation of such a policy. But if you don't see it - fine! You are certainly entitled to your policy. This has nothing to do with gay men or disabled men whatsoever.
Alex_The_Chan 12y ago
I've always been uncomfortable about the idea of addressing imbalance by focusing and targeting ONLY the minority. I like your analysis and process of reworking your site to be more appealing to everyone. In fact, I think I'll apply now :D
angersock 12y ago
A general comment, likely grounded more in my own frustration and : When did we become so concerned with awesome vacation getaways with code happening and less with, you know, programming? I think it's awesome that there are people who have the free money/time/resources/independence to go spend 12 weeks hacking in the tropics, but unless we see some baller results I can't help but shake the feeling this is an experience for trendy kids and not for the hardworking, overweight, overscheduled neckbeard. I hope you folks are able to publicize a bunch of cool stuff that comes out of this! That might give it a bit more street cred.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Are you sure the word "neckbeard" is really one you wanted to use here?
  - notduncansmith 12y ago
    Yeah, I meet the overworked and overscheduled parts (and couldn't afford to spend a month hacking on open source in the tropics), but I'm not overweight and certainly don't have a neckbeard. I get that "neckbeard" is more of a cultural term than a literal one, but it seems like even that interpretation has taken on a more pejorative bent lately.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      I just meant that they may have inadvertently re-introduced gender into the discussion. "Neckbeard" is definitely a pejorative term, but that's not in itself a huge problem.
      - notduncansmith 12y ago
        Ah, I missed that subtle point. Very astute.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Fair point, but given the trope I'm looking to invoke ( http://medriscoll.com/post/9117396231/the-guild-of-silicon-valley http://medriscoll.com/post/9117396231/the-guild-of-silicon-v... ), I'm okay with the baggage. Is there a female version of neckbeard? Or a gender-neutral word with the same connotations? I fear the obvious wordplay is offensive for the wrong reasons: neckbroad?
jqm 12y ago
Do one thing and do it well. This is a motto for more than UNIX in my opinion. Are you hacking or are you retreating and obtaining social justice? Because meanwhile, real hackers are really hacking and they generally don't care about gender ratio nor group retreats to Costa Rica. Don't think this is a dig just at this conference either. I get irate when I see fireman in uniform out collecting for charity and things like cowboy or biker churches. Fireman should be fighting fires. Churches shouldn't have anything to do with cowboys nor bikers (not a church attender...just something personally annoying I noticed). Separate your concerns and you won't lose sight of the proper function of each component. Just my opinion. Others may feel differently.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  Firefighters should be fighting fires 24/7 and not have enough free time to do charity work?
  - jqm 12y ago
    Sure, they should have plenty of time to do charity work. On their own time, out of uniform, as individual citizens, as members of the Elks Lodge, members of a church, members of a soup kitchen, whatever,.... just not on work hours as firefighters. Their job in that capacity should be simply to fight fires (and perform related public services). Again, just my opinion.
    - jiggy2011 12y ago
      Do firefighters routinely do charity collection while on the clock? I don't think I've ever heard of that, but I'm from the UK not the US. Are they from small fire depts that operate as charities and rely on donations to stay open or are they collecting for unrelated charities?
      - jqm 12y ago
        Yes, it's pretty common in the US. They stand at traffic lights in uniform with empty fireman boots for passing motorists to deposit money for causes unrelated to the fireman mission... Muscular Dystrophy research among other things. And to respond to above post, yes, they are often being paid while doing this http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/may/01/charity-taxpayer-dime-again-under-fire/ http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/may/01/charity-taxpayer.... But the point is not about receiving payment. The point is, they are representing themselves as fireman out doing something other than fighting fires. And this irkes me. I'd love to go to Costa Rica and plan to at some point in the future. But when I go to Costa Rica I'm going to surf and drink beer and eat a lot of seafood and lie in a hammock and do some shopping. I certainly don't plan to waste time in front of a computer writing code during this period. I do that here every day and I don't dream about Costa Rica nor worry about how many women nor minorities are in cubes next to me while I'm doing it.
sergiotapia 12y ago
Why do we need 50/50 ratios?
- jqm 12y ago
  We don't unless there is a bunch of money involved. Then the grievance and injustice becomes too much to bear. http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25369262/jesse-jackson-take-techs-lack-diversity http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25369262/jesse-jackso... Call me when there is concern about gender ratio among garbage collectors.
- FD3SA 12y ago
  I wonder why we never see articles about the gender imbalance in investment banking, underwater welding, or trucking.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    I know why. It's because you didn't bother looking. I found some on trucking and banking within ten seconds of starting to look.

76 points by AlexeyMK 12y ago

I like how this article focuses on things you can do now to even the gender balance, rather than just lamenting the broken pipeline.

caser 12y ago

This is what we learned - what did we miss? Anyone else out there with similar or conflicting experiences?

socialengineer 12y ago

+1 rming the picture of four dudes playing foosball

DanBC 12y ago
I agree it's not a great picture. One of the things that makes it a poor choice is that one of the people is probably female but she's been cropped almost out of the image.

ankitshah 12y ago

Love how this is tactically oriented and not just an expose of stuff that happened to work.

rickyPanzer 12y ago

awesome work!

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

Good work. My only objection is the endorsement of the Geek Feminism Wiki, which is an unreliable source.

AlexeyMK 12y ago
Do you mind going into a bit more depth here? The GFW was pretty useful re: the references it pointed us too. What makes it unreliable? (genuinely curious, clearly still learning here)
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  1) The editorial guidelines (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Meta:Editorial_guidelines http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Meta:Editorial_guidelines) state: While citations are preferred wherever possible, we do not require them. Much of our wiki is primary source material, sometimes added anonymously in order to avoid backlash against the whistleblower. Original research is welcome. 2) The Geek Feminism Wiki, although simply referring to itself as "feminist", subscribes to a particular form of third-wave poststructural feminism that is not so much concerned with equity, as it is preoccupied with dubious and subjective gender politics. Indeed, their editorial guidelines outright say "[We]... accept each person's self-reporting of their feelings and lived experiences as valid". Ultimately, this leads to a lot of bias, misrepresentation and is only a specific feminist viewpoint.
  - slvv 12y ago
    Is there an alternative that you think is better? Also, is their "version" of feminism a problem since they're so clear about what it is? It doesn't seem like they're hiding their perspective at all, so readers can decide how to interpret based on that knowledge.
    - makomk 12y ago
      Their version of feminism isn't all that clear at all from the description. Essentially all forms of feminism that revolve around women's "feelings and lived experiences" use them to prop up their underlying ideological beliefs - the only feelings and lived experiences that are accepted are the ones that confirm their ideology. You can see this in the list of out-of-scope items. For example, no "apologia for misogynist, anti-feminist, oppressive, or other harmful actions or ideas" is allowed - in practice this tends to include stuff like having an unfeminine attitude to sex and sexuality, doing sex work, being friends with anyone who does, opposing bans on it, being kinky, or complaining about any bad experiences you've had with other mainstream feminist women including systematic online and offline harassment (which is a serious problem for some groups of women). If you think about the guidelines it's easy to tell they exclude some women's feelings and lived experiences, but there's no way to tell which. The linked page makes it sound like the policy affects oppressors when it's mostly those who are worst off that get screwed.

facepalm 12y ago

How many of the 47% were also feminists?

Squarel 12y ago
Feminism meaning a belief that women should be treated equally to men? Hopefully all of them, and the other 53% too.
- facepalm 12y ago
  No the real feminism, meaning a belief that all women are victims and all men are wannabe rapists who can barely contain themselves. A no harassment policy is a red flag for me because it indicates a negative prejudice against men. But you'll welcome that, because every man who doesn't apply is good for the statistics, right? But on a deeper note, I wondered if the quota was because of the bows to feminist propaganda or merely because of the advertising with women coder groups.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    > A no harassment policy is a red flag for me because it indicates a negative prejudice against men. If saying "no harassment!" feels like an attack against men, that's an indication that you have a horribly negative outlook towards men.
    - facepalm 12y ago
      Well I've never heard men cry for a no harassment policy. Of course it is an attack against men - it implies that men need such policies and firm authority from the organizers to keep their lower instincts in check. But you know - I only tell you how I feel about it. You don't have to care. It's just my personal opinion that to me it would be a turn off. Just like men playing kicker is apparently a turn off to women. Granted even independent of gender it would be a turn off to me, because I don't want to mingle with people who need to be reminded of basic decency. Edit: I can not reply further. I don't think you understand my point at all. But to roll with your example: imagine you read an advertisement for a coding retreat, and the first line says "NO MURDER ALLOWED". Would that make you feel more safe or less safe about attending? Since you are hell bent on disagreeing with me you'll probably claim "more safe", but I am pretty sure in general it would come across a bit weird. You don't need a "don't murder" policy, because it is implied. So why isn't "no harassment" implied? By stating it, you imply that it is not implied, so you are effectively saying your attendants are prone to harass people.

cantastoria 12y ago

Harassment includes verbal comments that reinforce social structures of domination related to gender, gender identity and >expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, age, religion, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. And who gets to determine if I'm doing any of these things? The conference organizers? If I attend this conference, how can they assure me that I won't be at the mercy of conference attendees that suddenly decide I'm harassing them simply because I say something within their vicinity they disagree with a la Adria Richards? Although I guess Richards would have been taken to task for "harassing photography". Although by that point it would have been too late anyway. The problem with these speech codes is that they're just as easily used as a way to silence and shame people who's views differ from those of organizations like geekfeminism (i.e. not radfem). You don't have to be a feminist to treat women respectfully.

tptacek 12y ago
This comment has practically nothing to do with the article. As usual, any submission concerning improving the ratio of women to men in our industry immediately becomes a coatrack for digs about "radfem". For those of you who read the comments before clicking through to the article: this one is a list of things an event organizer did to try to boost attendance among women. None of them appear at all controversial. The "code of conduct" section this commenter takes issue with is table stakes at most major conferences. But that doesn't mean rude commenters will miss an opportunity to beat a dead horse.
- cantastoria 12y ago
  Ah in gallops tptacek on his trusty steed. Dead horse indeed. As usual, any submission concerning improving the ratio of women to men in our industry immediately becomes a coatrack for digs about "radfem". Just because they don't appear controversial to you doesn't make it so. And am I not allowed to take issue with the "table stakes"?

hartator 12y ago

I am going to be downvoted as hell, but what if by doing this, you are excluding some good elements? My experience is there is a reason why the best hackers are fat white dudes with big glasses. You can't artifialy transform them into girls. I also do believe in role models. But you can't make up fake ones.

ceejayoz 12y ago
> My experience is there is a reason why the best hackers are fat white dudes with big glasses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
- idlewords 12y ago
  They simply eat the smaller hackers who can see.
  - angersock 12y ago
    tbh this is now basically how google handles acquihires
  - icebraining 12y ago
    As a fat white dude with glasses I approve this.
idlewords 12y ago
Which part of what they did, specifically, do you think would exclude fat white dudes? The Hellen Keller quote? Not having the foosball photo? A conference code of conduct? Even granting your premise (which I don't agree with), I can't see where anyone is being excluded.
- facepalm 12y ago
  A conference code of conduct is an indicator of negative prejudice against men. I wouldn't feel welcome there. Edit: I am not allowed to reply any further. But you all don't get my point. I don't find the rule off putting because I am worried about my right to harass people. I am not interested in harassing people. I am worried about the implied accusation of such a policy. But if you don't see it - fine! You are certainly entitled to your policy. This has nothing to do with gay men or disabled men whatsoever.

Alex_The_Chan 12y ago

I've always been uncomfortable about the idea of addressing imbalance by focusing and targeting ONLY the minority. I like your analysis and process of reworking your site to be more appealing to everyone. In fact, I think I'll apply now :D

angersock 12y ago

A general comment, likely grounded more in my own frustration and : When did we become so concerned with awesome vacation getaways with code happening and less with, you know, programming? I think it's awesome that there are people who have the free money/time/resources/independence to go spend 12 weeks hacking in the tropics, but unless we see some baller results I can't help but shake the feeling this is an experience for trendy kids and not for the hardworking, overweight, overscheduled neckbeard. I hope you folks are able to publicize a bunch of cool stuff that comes out of this! That might give it a bit more street cred.

tptacek 12y ago
Are you sure the word "neckbeard" is really one you wanted to use here?
- notduncansmith 12y ago
  Yeah, I meet the overworked and overscheduled parts (and couldn't afford to spend a month hacking on open source in the tropics), but I'm not overweight and certainly don't have a neckbeard. I get that "neckbeard" is more of a cultural term than a literal one, but it seems like even that interpretation has taken on a more pejorative bent lately.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I just meant that they may have inadvertently re-introduced gender into the discussion. "Neckbeard" is definitely a pejorative term, but that's not in itself a huge problem.
    - notduncansmith 12y ago
      Ah, I missed that subtle point. Very astute.
- angersock 12y ago
  Fair point, but given the trope I'm looking to invoke ( http://medriscoll.com/post/9117396231/the-guild-of-silicon-valley http://medriscoll.com/post/9117396231/the-guild-of-silicon-v... ), I'm okay with the baggage. Is there a female version of neckbeard? Or a gender-neutral word with the same connotations? I fear the obvious wordplay is offensive for the wrong reasons: neckbroad?

jqm 12y ago

Do one thing and do it well. This is a motto for more than UNIX in my opinion. Are you hacking or are you retreating and obtaining social justice? Because meanwhile, real hackers are really hacking and they generally don't care about gender ratio nor group retreats to Costa Rica. Don't think this is a dig just at this conference either. I get irate when I see fireman in uniform out collecting for charity and things like cowboy or biker churches. Fireman should be fighting fires. Churches shouldn't have anything to do with cowboys nor bikers (not a church attender...just something personally annoying I noticed). Separate your concerns and you won't lose sight of the proper function of each component. Just my opinion. Others may feel differently.

jiggy2011 12y ago
Firefighters should be fighting fires 24/7 and not have enough free time to do charity work?
- jqm 12y ago
  Sure, they should have plenty of time to do charity work. On their own time, out of uniform, as individual citizens, as members of the Elks Lodge, members of a church, members of a soup kitchen, whatever,.... just not on work hours as firefighters. Their job in that capacity should be simply to fight fires (and perform related public services). Again, just my opinion.
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    Do firefighters routinely do charity collection while on the clock? I don't think I've ever heard of that, but I'm from the UK not the US. Are they from small fire depts that operate as charities and rely on donations to stay open or are they collecting for unrelated charities?
    - jqm 12y ago
      Yes, it's pretty common in the US. They stand at traffic lights in uniform with empty fireman boots for passing motorists to deposit money for causes unrelated to the fireman mission... Muscular Dystrophy research among other things. And to respond to above post, yes, they are often being paid while doing this http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/may/01/charity-taxpayer-dime-again-under-fire/ http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/may/01/charity-taxpayer.... But the point is not about receiving payment. The point is, they are representing themselves as fireman out doing something other than fighting fires. And this irkes me. I'd love to go to Costa Rica and plan to at some point in the future. But when I go to Costa Rica I'm going to surf and drink beer and eat a lot of seafood and lie in a hammock and do some shopping. I certainly don't plan to waste time in front of a computer writing code during this period. I do that here every day and I don't dream about Costa Rica nor worry about how many women nor minorities are in cubes next to me while I'm doing it.

sergiotapia 12y ago

Why do we need 50/50 ratios?

jqm 12y ago
We don't unless there is a bunch of money involved. Then the grievance and injustice becomes too much to bear. http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25369262/jesse-jackson-take-techs-lack-diversity http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25369262/jesse-jackso... Call me when there is concern about gender ratio among garbage collectors.
FD3SA 12y ago
I wonder why we never see articles about the gender imbalance in investment banking, underwater welding, or trucking.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  I know why. It's because you didn't bother looking. I found some on trucking and banking within ten seconds of starting to look.