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Which organic certification are you referring to which allows the use of neonicotinoids? Looking through the Australian ones it doesn't appear any of them would

by dools 12y ago

Which organic certification are you referring to which allows the use of neonicotinoids? Looking through the Australian ones it doesn't appear any of them would allow the use of neonicotinoids[1] but I have the feeling I don't know enough about it to say so conclusively ... [1]http://www.daff.gov.au/biosecurity/about/contact/aco http://www.daff.gov.au/biosecurity/about/contact/aco

VLM 12y ago
Doesn't appear to be allowed per USDA regs either. Eventually we're going to pinpoint OP by a process of elimination. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f10... If that fails, for a negative perspective, go to eCFR, chapter 7 Ag, part 205 USDA organic program, 205.602 "Nonsynthetic substances prohibited for use in organic crop production" lists (i) Tobacco dust (nicotine sulfate). Which is probably close enough to OPs claim. Or for a positive perspective 205.601 "Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production" section (e) "As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control)" and that lists 10 allowable bug killers none of which seem to be neonicotinoids. By negative and positive I don't mean some electrical thing but words like "can if you want" vs "no you will not". Either way (edited: Both ways...) no nicotinoids on USDA labeled produce in the USA. State regs are only allowed to be stricter than fed. So "Thats OK in California but not Wisconsin" is outright a non-starter if its already forbidden by USDA. Now if you mean in practice, like if a chemist ran tests on randomly purchased organic produce in the USA, I'd say hell yes you'll find it in organic produce. There's like 50 layers of middlemen and shippers in the food industry, you have a personal relationship with none of them (I buy beef from a family friend and bought vegetables from a great uncle who retired into being a gentleman farmer, that's "different" than driving to a local food store), and all of them have a huge financial interest in taking visually identical apples from "Chemical McWasteland's Industrial Farm" and putting them in boxes from "Sunshine Unicorn Organic Farm". How many layers of middlemen would make about a buck a pound or more by merely accidentally selling non-organic food as organic? And how corrupt is this country? In practice the primary effect of buying and eating organic produce is almost certainly feeling better while making corrupt individuals wealthier, even if theoretically health benefits could be available from organic produce. So the TLDR is legally wrong in the USA at the fed level both by being specifically forbidden AND by not listed as permitted, yet is also probably right that if you buy an "organic" apple at a convenience store, it probably isn't due to corruption.
- kerkeslager 12y ago
  The problem of middlemen is a large part of why I am involved in a food coop. Our coop buys mostly from local farmers, and if you have any questions about how something was grown, they provide contact information for the farmers. I've spoken to the people who grow my onions and mushrooms in person.

by dools 12y ago

VLM 12y ago

Doesn't appear to be allowed per USDA regs either. Eventually we're going to pinpoint OP by a process of elimination. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f10... If that fails, for a negative perspective, go to eCFR, chapter 7 Ag, part 205 USDA organic program, 205.602 "Nonsynthetic substances prohibited for use in organic crop production" lists (i) Tobacco dust (nicotine sulfate). Which is probably close enough to OPs claim. Or for a positive perspective 205.601 "Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production" section (e) "As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control)" and that lists 10 allowable bug killers none of which seem to be neonicotinoids. By negative and positive I don't mean some electrical thing but words like "can if you want" vs "no you will not". Either way (edited: Both ways...) no nicotinoids on USDA labeled produce in the USA. State regs are only allowed to be stricter than fed. So "Thats OK in California but not Wisconsin" is outright a non-starter if its already forbidden by USDA. Now if you mean in practice, like if a chemist ran tests on randomly purchased organic produce in the USA, I'd say hell yes you'll find it in organic produce. There's like 50 layers of middlemen and shippers in the food industry, you have a personal relationship with none of them (I buy beef from a family friend and bought vegetables from a great uncle who retired into being a gentleman farmer, that's "different" than driving to a local food store), and all of them have a huge financial interest in taking visually identical apples from "Chemical McWasteland's Industrial Farm" and putting them in boxes from "Sunshine Unicorn Organic Farm". How many layers of middlemen would make about a buck a pound or more by merely accidentally selling non-organic food as organic? And how corrupt is this country? In practice the primary effect of buying and eating organic produce is almost certainly feeling better while making corrupt individuals wealthier, even if theoretically health benefits could be available from organic produce. So the TLDR is legally wrong in the USA at the fed level both by being specifically forbidden AND by not listed as permitted, yet is also probably right that if you buy an "organic" apple at a convenience store, it probably isn't due to corruption.

kerkeslager 12y ago
The problem of middlemen is a large part of why I am involved in a food coop. Our coop buys mostly from local farmers, and if you have any questions about how something was grown, they provide contact information for the farmers. I've spoken to the people who grow my onions and mushrooms in person.