5 ms·

I'm not sure why vulgar language is becoming so acceptable and commonly used . Am I just old school (even though I'm 30) when I find myself turned away from pe

I'm not sure why vulgar language is becoming so acceptable and commonly used . Am I just old school (even though I'm 30) when I find myself turned away from people who talk in such a manner or do others feel similar to me?

unalone 17y ago
I'm new school (if 19 isn't too old to call myself that), and swearing's becoming such a huge trend because of how natural it feels. It's part of the huge trend towards the unprofessional. That's a good thing. While it's got some irritating side effects, the overall idea is getting rid of bullshit attitudes towards one another. Swearing is a part of language. There's nothing wrong with its being used.
- TheElder 17y ago
  I'm in agreement with your assessment that the trend is towards unprofessionalism. I live in the US, and have been to Japan three times. My first time there I was totally shocked with the effort put into dress to look as clean and professional as possible. Top notch suits that were perfectly pressed, nice shoes, a nice brief case (very few backpacks), and a very polite attitude. I wish our trend was towards the Japanese attitude towards the way we present ourselves in public. Off topic: it's so refreshing to come here (HN) and read a reply that isn't some kind of verbal attack towards me for the opinion I presented. I thank you for that, for stating your opinion with insights without attacking me.
  - rikthevik 17y ago
    The pressed suit is a nice touch, but I think with North Americans you'll find more of a focus on results rather than presentation. Presentation is great when it follows substance, but it's no substitute.
  - madair 17y ago
    Isn't their saying, "If a nail sticks out, hammer it down"? Is that what you're going for? Or an unintended side effect?
  - branden 17y ago
    I personally find that kind of professionalism to be stodgy and counterproductive. If you really care whether someone uses a briefcase or a backpack, your concerns are misplaced. (Excepting politeness, of course. I consider that to be an important component.)
  - unalone 17y ago
    Absolutely! I love that HN lets me have civil discussions with people whose worldviews are different than mine. I'd like to visit Japan and see what the culture there's like. I'd like to visit anywhere that's not the US, for that matter, but Japan's the place that I've heard is radically different in nearly every way.
  - jac_no_k 17y ago
    Wandering off on to the Japan topic. The suits, briefcases, shiny shoes, etc. is the uniform of the "salary" man, typically working in a bank shuffling paper back and forth. This is simply packaging with no real thought put into what it really means. Even during the heat of summer at 30dC at 80% humidity, they will be wearing the same uniform. The polite attitude sometimes blocks on getting things done. They have a very hard time openly disagreeing. Instead they would state their position over and over. Ask you for your thoughts and if they do no match, repeat the process. This is what makes Westerners great IMO. They take a position, scream about it, and action on it. The Japanese will be stuck in a planning committee and not get things done. Of course this is just generalizations. Just seems in general that Japanese are polite spectators and Westerners are rowdy spectators that are more likely run on to the field to make a change.
- GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
  I'm 25 and I think swearing is a perfect form of communication, not good or bad but a perfect one. If I say fuck blue ray, I am IMMEDIATELY in few words getting the point accross that: a) I dislike blue ray. b) I am having an very negative emotional reaction to it and want to convey this fact. c) Has an immediate effect. Now just like any word it can be misused, however if you want the above 3 points conveyed then fuck is the perfect word to use.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    And reason b) is why I would not expect to see that sentiment in a reasoned argument.
    - pyre 17y ago
      And (of course) every piece of writing that is not a reasoned argument is rubbish.
      - scott_s 17y ago
        I did not say that nor did I intend to imply it.
  - edw519 17y ago
    Don't forget: d) Rather than thinking through what I have to say, I'd rather slip down to the lowest common denominator expression because it's easier, without regard to the large percentage of my audience that may be offended. e) For me, emotion trumps reason. f) Has an immediate effect, although not the one I might hope for. hn is a great place for technically minded people to share ideas on achieving success. Discarding x% of your audience for no apparent reason is hardly a perfect form of anything.
    - unalone 17y ago
      As much as I agree with your points, I'm going to side with GMB here in saying that swears are useful in achieving certain things. I see both sides of the story: I'm a writer (and more than that, a stylist) by choice, but I'm also foulmouthed to a fault. There's a time and a place for each. Jason Scott, the writer in question, is known for using lots of swears to achieve an emotional effect, but he's excused for that by working really fucking hard on the projects he's chosen to care about. So for me, the context of who he is justifies his swearing, because I know where he's coming from. As for discarding audience: absolutely get rid of them if you want to! That's the choice of the writer. Maybe I don't want the sort of audience that still gets childjitters when I say the word shit in front of them. I had a professor last semester who told me he didn't approve of my describing another student's project idea as "fucked-up", because it conveyed a lack of respect for the idea. Fact was, the idea was disrespectable—but if I'd used that word, I'd have implied in my politeness some respect for the idea, when in fact I had none. Jason Scott isn't writing to give constructive criticism. He's writing because he thinks the idea of BluRay needs demolition. In the past, when he's critiqued things, he's shown a restraint of language; this deserved none. (I'll also respond to your manner of responding by saying that I find snarky sarcasm as much of a turn-off as you find my crude mouth, and that I'm much less likely to respect snark than I am swears.)
- scott_s 17y ago
  There's nothing wrong with it being used well. But a single unnecessary curse word can sour the tone for the rest of the work. What do I mean by "unnecessary"? When it doesn't communicate any information. Example from the essay: They’re fucking breaking the functionality of shit just because they can and you’re fine with this? "Fucking" and "shit" don't impart any information. The following is a better version of the sentence because it communicates the same amount of information with less words: They’re breaking functionality just because they can and you’re fine with this? Calling something "bullshit" on the other hand, communicates information since "bullshit" is a concept we are all familiar with. There are alternatives - "bullcrap" or just "bull" - but that just invites the reader to think "They mean 'bullshit' but don't want to say 'shit.'"
  - dhimes 17y ago
    An interesting side effect of the trend towards bad language (which I feel is most often the result of laziness) is that its emotional context is being degraded, at least for me. For instance, if someone calls something "bullshit," it seems casual, or I'll be suspicious of the reasoning. If somebody uses the word, "nonsense," instead, it gives me pause and I immediately think more highly of the motivation of the speaker/writer. Again, I can't defend this rationally; it's just an emotional reaction I have.
    - scott_s 17y ago
      I've noticed something similar as well. For a few years now, I've favored calling something "silly." In context, it's connotations are just as bad - if not worse - than harsher alternatives, but it doesn't trigger people's curse word sensor. On the other hand, using harsh words rarely has power. If someone you've never heard curse before calls something "bullshit," you'll take notice. This only works, though, if you swear so rarely that people take note that when you do, it has meaning. In other words, swearing casually removes the power of swearing.
      - billybob 17y ago
        "In other words, swearing casually removes the power of swearing." Yes. Which is why we need stronger swear words than ever now. I propose "kruftonic." Nice and consonant-y for your stronger swearing needs.
njharman 17y ago
It's always been acceptable and commonly used (by certain peoples). It's just now with communication revolution aka The Internet, everyone's speech is potentially seen by millions. So, what was hidden and obscure is now only a click away.
madair 17y ago
I'm glad for any trend against the corporatism, homogenization and prudishness in American professional culture that dehumanizes and demeans people.
- pyre 17y ago
  If you are trying to be sarcastic with this then I have to question how saying, "Fuck BluRay!" dehumanizes or demeans me...
  - madair 17y ago
    I'm not being sarcastic, and I'm replying to the comment on language. Sorry I was unclear.
e40 17y ago
The web design offended me 1000x more than the swearing. (Looking around the site it appears to be his gimmic.)
ZeroGravitas 17y ago
You might be intersted in the Let's not get so feckin' hung up about swearing essay by David Mitchell: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/28/david-mitchell-swearing-television http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/28/david-mi... excerpt: Is saying "fuck" offensive? That's not the same as asking: "Is 'fuck' a rude word?" Everyone accepts it's a rude word - it would hardly be used if it weren't. The disagreement is about whether using it (and other swearing, but "fuck" is the Gaza Strip here) is an offensive act. I don't think it is. I don't think it matters a shit, damn or piss if someone says "fuck" or how many times they say it. My friends and colleagues unthinkingly use it all the time and, as far as I can tell, it hasn't resulted in the poisoning of their souls or their becoming unable to express themselves because of the effect of linguistic inflation.

unalone 17y ago

I'm new school (if 19 isn't too old to call myself that), and swearing's becoming such a huge trend because of how natural it feels. It's part of the huge trend towards the unprofessional. That's a good thing. While it's got some irritating side effects, the overall idea is getting rid of bullshit attitudes towards one another. Swearing is a part of language. There's nothing wrong with its being used.

TheElder 17y ago
I'm in agreement with your assessment that the trend is towards unprofessionalism. I live in the US, and have been to Japan three times. My first time there I was totally shocked with the effort put into dress to look as clean and professional as possible. Top notch suits that were perfectly pressed, nice shoes, a nice brief case (very few backpacks), and a very polite attitude. I wish our trend was towards the Japanese attitude towards the way we present ourselves in public. Off topic: it's so refreshing to come here (HN) and read a reply that isn't some kind of verbal attack towards me for the opinion I presented. I thank you for that, for stating your opinion with insights without attacking me.
- rikthevik 17y ago
  The pressed suit is a nice touch, but I think with North Americans you'll find more of a focus on results rather than presentation. Presentation is great when it follows substance, but it's no substitute.
- madair 17y ago
  Isn't their saying, "If a nail sticks out, hammer it down"? Is that what you're going for? Or an unintended side effect?
- branden 17y ago
  I personally find that kind of professionalism to be stodgy and counterproductive. If you really care whether someone uses a briefcase or a backpack, your concerns are misplaced. (Excepting politeness, of course. I consider that to be an important component.)
- unalone 17y ago
  Absolutely! I love that HN lets me have civil discussions with people whose worldviews are different than mine. I'd like to visit Japan and see what the culture there's like. I'd like to visit anywhere that's not the US, for that matter, but Japan's the place that I've heard is radically different in nearly every way.
- jac_no_k 17y ago
  Wandering off on to the Japan topic. The suits, briefcases, shiny shoes, etc. is the uniform of the "salary" man, typically working in a bank shuffling paper back and forth. This is simply packaging with no real thought put into what it really means. Even during the heat of summer at 30dC at 80% humidity, they will be wearing the same uniform. The polite attitude sometimes blocks on getting things done. They have a very hard time openly disagreeing. Instead they would state their position over and over. Ask you for your thoughts and if they do no match, repeat the process. This is what makes Westerners great IMO. They take a position, scream about it, and action on it. The Japanese will be stuck in a planning committee and not get things done. Of course this is just generalizations. Just seems in general that Japanese are polite spectators and Westerners are rowdy spectators that are more likely run on to the field to make a change.
GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
I'm 25 and I think swearing is a perfect form of communication, not good or bad but a perfect one. If I say fuck blue ray, I am IMMEDIATELY in few words getting the point accross that: a) I dislike blue ray. b) I am having an very negative emotional reaction to it and want to convey this fact. c) Has an immediate effect. Now just like any word it can be misused, however if you want the above 3 points conveyed then fuck is the perfect word to use.
- scott_s 17y ago
  And reason b) is why I would not expect to see that sentiment in a reasoned argument.
  - pyre 17y ago
    And (of course) every piece of writing that is not a reasoned argument is rubbish.
    - scott_s 17y ago
      I did not say that nor did I intend to imply it.
- edw519 17y ago
  Don't forget: d) Rather than thinking through what I have to say, I'd rather slip down to the lowest common denominator expression because it's easier, without regard to the large percentage of my audience that may be offended. e) For me, emotion trumps reason. f) Has an immediate effect, although not the one I might hope for. hn is a great place for technically minded people to share ideas on achieving success. Discarding x% of your audience for no apparent reason is hardly a perfect form of anything.
  - unalone 17y ago
    As much as I agree with your points, I'm going to side with GMB here in saying that swears are useful in achieving certain things. I see both sides of the story: I'm a writer (and more than that, a stylist) by choice, but I'm also foulmouthed to a fault. There's a time and a place for each. Jason Scott, the writer in question, is known for using lots of swears to achieve an emotional effect, but he's excused for that by working really fucking hard on the projects he's chosen to care about. So for me, the context of who he is justifies his swearing, because I know where he's coming from. As for discarding audience: absolutely get rid of them if you want to! That's the choice of the writer. Maybe I don't want the sort of audience that still gets childjitters when I say the word shit in front of them. I had a professor last semester who told me he didn't approve of my describing another student's project idea as "fucked-up", because it conveyed a lack of respect for the idea. Fact was, the idea was disrespectable—but if I'd used that word, I'd have implied in my politeness some respect for the idea, when in fact I had none. Jason Scott isn't writing to give constructive criticism. He's writing because he thinks the idea of BluRay needs demolition. In the past, when he's critiqued things, he's shown a restraint of language; this deserved none. (I'll also respond to your manner of responding by saying that I find snarky sarcasm as much of a turn-off as you find my crude mouth, and that I'm much less likely to respect snark than I am swears.)
scott_s 17y ago
There's nothing wrong with it being used well. But a single unnecessary curse word can sour the tone for the rest of the work. What do I mean by "unnecessary"? When it doesn't communicate any information. Example from the essay: They’re fucking breaking the functionality of shit just because they can and you’re fine with this? "Fucking" and "shit" don't impart any information. The following is a better version of the sentence because it communicates the same amount of information with less words: They’re breaking functionality just because they can and you’re fine with this? Calling something "bullshit" on the other hand, communicates information since "bullshit" is a concept we are all familiar with. There are alternatives - "bullcrap" or just "bull" - but that just invites the reader to think "They mean 'bullshit' but don't want to say 'shit.'"
- dhimes 17y ago
  An interesting side effect of the trend towards bad language (which I feel is most often the result of laziness) is that its emotional context is being degraded, at least for me. For instance, if someone calls something "bullshit," it seems casual, or I'll be suspicious of the reasoning. If somebody uses the word, "nonsense," instead, it gives me pause and I immediately think more highly of the motivation of the speaker/writer. Again, I can't defend this rationally; it's just an emotional reaction I have.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    I've noticed something similar as well. For a few years now, I've favored calling something "silly." In context, it's connotations are just as bad - if not worse - than harsher alternatives, but it doesn't trigger people's curse word sensor. On the other hand, using harsh words rarely has power. If someone you've never heard curse before calls something "bullshit," you'll take notice. This only works, though, if you swear so rarely that people take note that when you do, it has meaning. In other words, swearing casually removes the power of swearing.
    - billybob 17y ago
      "In other words, swearing casually removes the power of swearing." Yes. Which is why we need stronger swear words than ever now. I propose "kruftonic." Nice and consonant-y for your stronger swearing needs.

njharman 17y ago

It's always been acceptable and commonly used (by certain peoples). It's just now with communication revolution aka The Internet, everyone's speech is potentially seen by millions. So, what was hidden and obscure is now only a click away.

madair 17y ago

I'm glad for any trend against the corporatism, homogenization and prudishness in American professional culture that dehumanizes and demeans people.

pyre 17y ago
If you are trying to be sarcastic with this then I have to question how saying, "Fuck BluRay!" dehumanizes or demeans me...
- madair 17y ago
  I'm not being sarcastic, and I'm replying to the comment on language. Sorry I was unclear.

e40 17y ago

The web design offended me 1000x more than the swearing. (Looking around the site it appears to be his gimmic.)

ZeroGravitas 17y ago

You might be intersted in the Let's not get so feckin' hung up about swearing essay by David Mitchell: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/28/david-mitchell-swearing-television http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/28/david-mi... excerpt: Is saying "fuck" offensive? That's not the same as asking: "Is 'fuck' a rude word?" Everyone accepts it's a rude word - it would hardly be used if it weren't. The disagreement is about whether using it (and other swearing, but "fuck" is the Gaza Strip here) is an offensive act. I don't think it is. I don't think it matters a shit, damn or piss if someone says "fuck" or how many times they say it. My friends and colleagues unthinkingly use it all the time and, as far as I can tell, it hasn't resulted in the poisoning of their souls or their becoming unable to express themselves because of the effect of linguistic inflation.