4 ms·

Its a neat idea, but I would echo the sentiment brought up in the thread linked that casual users would have a much harder time with a lua config in comparison

Its a neat idea, but I would echo the sentiment brought up in the thread linked that casual users would have a much harder time with a lua config in comparison to the current one. Its probably a good idea to move in this direction in the long run, but there is always a risk of displeasing your current users.

evgen 17y ago
Given the complexity to which apache and its ecosystem has grown and the consequences for screwing up this configuration task, this seems quite similar to sendmail in that I think a reasonable argument can be made that casual users should not be configuring this particular system. Period.
- mgrouchy 17y ago
  You can make that argument, but reality is that casual users do configure apache so it ends up becoming a concern of the developers whether they want it to be or not. Like I said, in the long run, it might be better to make the switch, but a change can cause significant risk/inconvenience to casual users or users who have such complicated configurations it would require significant time to replicate in another format.
scott_s 17y ago
I wonder if the people who made those comments are in denial about the complexity of Apache configuration files. Having never seen one, I Googled "apache sample config file" and I came up on this page: http://www.pantz.org/software/apache/apache13config.html http://www.pantz.org/software/apache/apache13config.html This is representative of the more complex entries: <IfModule mod_alias.c> # # Note that if you include a trailing / on fakename then the server will # require it to be present in the URL. So "/icons" isn't aliased in this # example, only "/icons/". If the fakename is slash-terminated, then the # realname must also be slash terminated, and if the fakename omits the # trailing slash, the realname must also omit it. # Alias /icons/ "/usr/local/apache/icons/" Alias /icons/ "/var/www/icons/" <Directory "/usr/local/apache/icons"> Options Indexes MultiViews AllowOverride None Order allow,deny Allow from all </Directory> # # ScriptAlias: This controls which directories contain server scripts. # ScriptAliases are essentially the same as Aliases, except that # documents in the realname directory are treated as applications and # run by the server when requested rather than as documents sent to the client. # The same rules about trailing "/" apply to ScriptAlias directives as to # Alias. # # ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/usr/local/apache/cgi-bin/" ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/cgi-bin/" # # "/var/www/cgi-bin" should be changed to whatever your ScriptAliased # CGI directory exists, if you have that configured. # <Directory "/var/www/cgi-bin"> AllowOverride None Options ExecCGI Order allow,deny Allow from all </Directory> # # "/usr/local/apache/cgi-bin" should be changed to whatever your ScriptAliased # CGI directory exists, if you have that configured. # # <Directory "/usr/local/apache/cgi-bin"> # AllowOverride None # Options None # Order allow,deny # Allow from all # </Directory> </IfModule> That is a language, and it's one that exists solely for Apache config files. I think using an actual programming language would be easier for most people.
- silentbicycle 17y ago
  http://people.apache.org/~rbowen/presentations/apacheconEU2005/hate_apache.pdf http://people.apache.org/~rbowen/presentations/apacheconEU20... Right, and it's a language with a brittle, inconsistently documented, largely ad hoc syntax. While Lua's syntax has its quirks (the syntax for lambdas is a little cumbersome, arrays are indexed from 1), that's because it is designed to be straightforward for simple use by non-programmers. The advanced features* don't get in the way if you're only using it as a log/config/etc. file format. * Tail-call optimization, closures, coroutines, etc.
  - compay 17y ago
    Thank you, I was looking for a link to that presentation this morning and couldn't remember who had given it.
- yesimahuman 17y ago
  In your example though, the complexity comes from having to know what things like "Order allow,deny" are. If you moved to lua I assume they would still use the same terminology, you would just have to represent it in lua instead of the current format. I think a file like this is easier for someone who has even a little bit of HTML experience to understand versus lua.
  - scott_s 17y ago
    To me, the complexity comes from using a pseudo-XML syntax to indicate control flow and function (?) calls.
boredguy8 17y ago
Programmatic configuration solutions seem easier to me in a Lua world than the current .conf approach, which means it would be easier to develop tools for the casual user.
- silentbicycle 17y ago
  Small thing, but it's "Lua", not "LUA". It means 'moon' in Portuguese, etymologically related to 'luna'/'lunar' in Romance languages. (Lua is from Brazil.)

evgen 17y ago

Given the complexity to which apache and its ecosystem has grown and the consequences for screwing up this configuration task, this seems quite similar to sendmail in that I think a reasonable argument can be made that casual users should not be configuring this particular system. Period.

mgrouchy 17y ago
You can make that argument, but reality is that casual users do configure apache so it ends up becoming a concern of the developers whether they want it to be or not. Like I said, in the long run, it might be better to make the switch, but a change can cause significant risk/inconvenience to casual users or users who have such complicated configurations it would require significant time to replicate in another format.

scott_s 17y ago

I wonder if the people who made those comments are in denial about the complexity of Apache configuration files. Having never seen one, I Googled "apache sample config file" and I came up on this page: http://www.pantz.org/software/apache/apache13config.html http://www.pantz.org/software/apache/apache13config.html This is representative of the more complex entries: <IfModule mod_alias.c> # # Note that if you include a trailing / on fakename then the server will # require it to be present in the URL. So "/icons" isn't aliased in this # example, only "/icons/". If the fakename is slash-terminated, then the # realname must also be slash terminated, and if the fakename omits the # trailing slash, the realname must also omit it. # Alias /icons/ "/usr/local/apache/icons/" Alias /icons/ "/var/www/icons/" <Directory "/usr/local/apache/icons"> Options Indexes MultiViews AllowOverride None Order allow,deny Allow from all </Directory> # # ScriptAlias: This controls which directories contain server scripts. # ScriptAliases are essentially the same as Aliases, except that # documents in the realname directory are treated as applications and # run by the server when requested rather than as documents sent to the client. # The same rules about trailing "/" apply to ScriptAlias directives as to # Alias. # # ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/usr/local/apache/cgi-bin/" ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/cgi-bin/" # # "/var/www/cgi-bin" should be changed to whatever your ScriptAliased # CGI directory exists, if you have that configured. # <Directory "/var/www/cgi-bin"> AllowOverride None Options ExecCGI Order allow,deny Allow from all </Directory> # # "/usr/local/apache/cgi-bin" should be changed to whatever your ScriptAliased # CGI directory exists, if you have that configured. # # <Directory "/usr/local/apache/cgi-bin"> # AllowOverride None # Options None # Order allow,deny # Allow from all # </Directory> </IfModule> That is a language, and it's one that exists solely for Apache config files. I think using an actual programming language would be easier for most people.

silentbicycle 17y ago
http://people.apache.org/~rbowen/presentations/apacheconEU2005/hate_apache.pdf http://people.apache.org/~rbowen/presentations/apacheconEU20... Right, and it's a language with a brittle, inconsistently documented, largely ad hoc syntax. While Lua's syntax has its quirks (the syntax for lambdas is a little cumbersome, arrays are indexed from 1), that's because it is designed to be straightforward for simple use by non-programmers. The advanced features* don't get in the way if you're only using it as a log/config/etc. file format. * Tail-call optimization, closures, coroutines, etc.
- compay 17y ago
  Thank you, I was looking for a link to that presentation this morning and couldn't remember who had given it.
yesimahuman 17y ago
In your example though, the complexity comes from having to know what things like "Order allow,deny" are. If you moved to lua I assume they would still use the same terminology, you would just have to represent it in lua instead of the current format. I think a file like this is easier for someone who has even a little bit of HTML experience to understand versus lua.
- scott_s 17y ago
  To me, the complexity comes from using a pseudo-XML syntax to indicate control flow and function (?) calls.

boredguy8 17y ago

Programmatic configuration solutions seem easier to me in a Lua world than the current .conf approach, which means it would be easier to develop tools for the casual user.

silentbicycle 17y ago
Small thing, but it's "Lua", not "LUA". It means 'moon' in Portuguese, etymologically related to 'luna'/'lunar' in Romance languages. (Lua is from Brazil.)