11 ms·

Publishers are a dying species like music labels are, as in not at all and only as a techie trope. They're in business because they provide value to the authors

by IBM 12y ago

Publishers are a dying species like music labels are, as in not at all and only as a techie trope. They're in business because they provide value to the authors and artists they represent and that will continue being the case as long as authors and artists don't want to deal with the burden of the business side of their craft and figuring out how to commercialize it. Keep in mind that Amazon is also a "value-added middleman".

NaOH 12y ago
A friend recently published a Kindle Single, about 16,000 words. It's done quite well, largely because of three factors: Amazon marketing, the popularity of the subject matter, and timely external events tied to the subject matter. The piece is currently in the top 120 of the Kindle store. I'm certain that Amazon marketing has played a significant role in the initial success of this piece. On the other hand, I proofread the final draft that the author had before approving the piece for publication. The Amazon/Kindle person he had been working with as a proofreader supposedly had 25 years experience proofreading at the NY Times. I probably found 100–200 errors, not the "I would do it like this: kind, but the "this is wrong" kind. When I spoke to my friend/author later on, he said that the proofreader is simply overwhelmed with work. I can't remember how much she once described to him she'd have to do in short order, but it was a ridiculous amount of work. So while there is a value add to a middle man like Amazon, I can see how there are shortcomings to what they offer since the grunt-work side of publishing isn’t their focus, even if they do a bit of it. That’s not to suggest the long-standing publishers are better, just that there are shortcomings to what each style of publisher offers, and it may be difficult for a new author to learn the shortcomings before it’s too late.
- Semaphor 12y ago
  Many self-published authors with their first novel out I read comments from on Reddit (fiction) say that for their next novel, they are planning to use a dedicated editor/proofreader.
- jonnathanson 12y ago
  Can you clarify what you mean when you say "Amazon marketing?" Do you mean being featured by Amazon, or algorithmically suggested to readers of other books, or something else altogether? I am not asking snarkily; I am genuinely curious. I'm contemplating self-publishing, but I'm aware that Amazon is a pretty noisy landscape. If there are ways to power one's signal through the noise, I'm interested in learning about them.
  - NaOH 12y ago
    Maybe there's been algorithmic marketing from Amazon, but I meant featuring. I know they did at least two email blasts promoting the book (maybe others, too, I don't know).
HelloMcFly 12y ago
I know the tech crowd in general seems to correlate highly with the crowd the endorses the future of self-publishing, and I get it. Yet, I cannot help but think that many of these "let the people decide" self-publishing advocates have not waded much into the work of the self-published author. I'm an avid reader; honestly, given my nighttime reading patterns, I probably read too much. I've been to the deep ends of reading self-published work (much of it "acclaimed") and I'm not satisfied. Perhaps one day we'll arrive at a place where crowd-sourced reviews adequately filter the wheat from the chaff in an editor- and marketing-less world, but I'm not convinced we are there just yet. Short version: I've read many (i.e., 10+) self-published works, and few of them have me looking forward to a world without publishers. I appreciate "elitist" filters that still allow pulpy sci-fi and fantasy through. I'm not ready to see them leave quite yet.
- sheepmullet 12y ago
  "Perhaps one day we'll arrive at a place where crowd-sourced reviews adequately filter the wheat from the chaff in an editor- and marketing-less world, but I'm not convinced we are there just yet." How do you find books to read? My techniques are: Amazon suggestions, browsing at the library, blogs, forums, and following my favorite authors websites. None of these require a publisher.
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    The difference is - for every 1 book that a reputable publisher puts out, they reject 1000. Now, perhaps 500 of those books might have OK, and maybe 50 of them might have been quite good, and it's entirely possible that the 1 book they did chose to publish, was not as good as 10-15 others they rejected - but, on the flip side, it's highly unlikely that the publisher is going to chose one of the 500 dogs that never deserve to see the light of day. The problem with Crowd sourced reviews, is that quite often, other people might like quite crappy books. The job of a publisher isn't to just find a book that they like, but that the general reading population will love. I appreciate and respect what the publisher does as part of their filtering - I just suspect they are extracting more value than they are worth. Hopefully established authors are able to negotiate increasingly more lucrative deals as a reflection of both the reduced risk, as well as the increased value they bring to the equation (as well as the reduced value that the publisher brings. I can't tell you who Stephen King's publisher is...)
kansface 12y ago
Music sales have seen negative growth for the last decade. The major labels don't exist because they provide value; they are just dying, slowly, as billion dollar businesses do.
TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
>They're in business because they provide value to the authors and artists Publishers provide value to themselves, not to authors or artists. Argument from quality: nope. Most publishers won't touch quality writing, because they know the market for it is limited. Joyce would never be published today. Austen might, but Austen is a bit difficult, so probably not. Lessing was turned down by a major publisher when she tried submitting under a different name, just to see what happened. I have my doubts if Pynchon or Vonnegut would be taken on today. (Has anyone of equivalent ability been signed in the last twenty five years?) There's a huge market for ghost-written celebrity blather nonsense, landfill SF and Fantasy, and two-glasses-of-wine-and-a-billionaire chicklit, and a much smaller market for self-absorbed litfic. But quality literature? Argument from services provided: nope again. Editors aren't quite two a penny, but good ones are available for hire. Likewise cover designers. Because you're paying them direct, you'll find that an editing process that takes publishers 18 months can be completed in a few weeks. Argument from marketing: Publishers literally won't lift a finger to help any author who isn't already selling in the millions. Argument from financial support: A couple of $k up front if you're very lucky, in return for losing 85% of future income. And you'll probably be offered a crappy work for hire contract. So - what is this 'value' that publishers provide?
- ganeumann 12y ago
  > Has anyone of equivalent ability been signed in the last twenty five years? Whether they're of equivalent ability is subjective, of course, but plenty of difficult but beautiful literary works are published every year. And I would bet that their first run is a lot larger than Ulysses' was :) Authors I've read in the past couple of years that were not mainstream but were published recently include Roberto Bolano, John Banville, Tom McCarthy, Eduardo Galeano...and I'm not much of a fiction reader. There's an enormous number of books published and almost all of them are not mainstream.
  - TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
    Most of those have had established careers for a long time. McCarthy is relatively new, but he was soundly rejected by all the big pubs, published by a tiny house, and then the big pubs reconsidered when he started shifting copies. Which is almost exactly what happened to JK Rowling, only her books are slightly more accessible. The big pubs do not take risks. If a writer can show evidence of critical interest and existing strong sales, they suddenly become interested. Signing on the basis of a strong, original manuscript? Not any more. I'm sure there's an exception every year or five, but it's a good bet that unless you're incredibly lucky and/or know commissioning editors personally already because you all went to university together, the odds of getting in through the front door are not good now.
NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
Music companies have already lost all of their storefronts. I think the last time I was in a record store was the early 1990s. The big record company executives aren't as rich as they once were, and they're starting to lose their grip on the recording and manufacturing process. The labels really are dying. They'll hold on a few more decades, but only because they'll not let go of their venue monopoly willingly. And books? When's the last time you were in a Borders? How long before all those old Barnes and Noble storefronts are just Halloween stores for 2 months out of the year? They too are losing control of the publishing and distributing process.
Consultant32452 12y ago
That's because people don't understand that publishers do a lot more than just "publish." They also provide editors, professional typescripting/page layout (whatever you call that), connect authors with artists for covers or other graphic work in/on the book itself, and marketing. Those are huge value ads that will continue to be important forever.
- justincormack 12y ago
  Authors can buy those services directly. Most of those people are freelance, publishers do not actually employ them anyway. Now some authors do not of course, perhaps disclosure of editors and artists and typographers might grow more.
  - Consultant32452 12y ago
    Authors can buy those services directly but why bother trying to source and vet those things yourself? Some might, and I know the HN crowd is very much of the "I can do everything" mentality. But most people will be happy to pay an intermediary to do those things that are outside of their wheelhouse.
    - justincormack 12y ago
      The intermediary does not have to do it for a percentage of the sales though, these are jobs that are charged by the hour normally. Most freelancers do not want equity in your book, they want cash, so a sane intermediary would just charge a fixed fee.
      - czr80 12y ago
        What if the book doesn't sell? Who absorbs the loss on the upfront costs?

by IBM 12y ago

NaOH 12y ago

A friend recently published a Kindle Single, about 16,000 words. It's done quite well, largely because of three factors: Amazon marketing, the popularity of the subject matter, and timely external events tied to the subject matter. The piece is currently in the top 120 of the Kindle store. I'm certain that Amazon marketing has played a significant role in the initial success of this piece. On the other hand, I proofread the final draft that the author had before approving the piece for publication. The Amazon/Kindle person he had been working with as a proofreader supposedly had 25 years experience proofreading at the NY Times. I probably found 100–200 errors, not the "I would do it like this: kind, but the "this is wrong" kind. When I spoke to my friend/author later on, he said that the proofreader is simply overwhelmed with work. I can't remember how much she once described to him she'd have to do in short order, but it was a ridiculous amount of work. So while there is a value add to a middle man like Amazon, I can see how there are shortcomings to what they offer since the grunt-work side of publishing isn’t their focus, even if they do a bit of it. That’s not to suggest the long-standing publishers are better, just that there are shortcomings to what each style of publisher offers, and it may be difficult for a new author to learn the shortcomings before it’s too late.

Semaphor 12y ago
Many self-published authors with their first novel out I read comments from on Reddit (fiction) say that for their next novel, they are planning to use a dedicated editor/proofreader.
jonnathanson 12y ago
Can you clarify what you mean when you say "Amazon marketing?" Do you mean being featured by Amazon, or algorithmically suggested to readers of other books, or something else altogether? I am not asking snarkily; I am genuinely curious. I'm contemplating self-publishing, but I'm aware that Amazon is a pretty noisy landscape. If there are ways to power one's signal through the noise, I'm interested in learning about them.
- NaOH 12y ago
  Maybe there's been algorithmic marketing from Amazon, but I meant featuring. I know they did at least two email blasts promoting the book (maybe others, too, I don't know).

HelloMcFly 12y ago

I know the tech crowd in general seems to correlate highly with the crowd the endorses the future of self-publishing, and I get it. Yet, I cannot help but think that many of these "let the people decide" self-publishing advocates have not waded much into the work of the self-published author. I'm an avid reader; honestly, given my nighttime reading patterns, I probably read too much. I've been to the deep ends of reading self-published work (much of it "acclaimed") and I'm not satisfied. Perhaps one day we'll arrive at a place where crowd-sourced reviews adequately filter the wheat from the chaff in an editor- and marketing-less world, but I'm not convinced we are there just yet. Short version: I've read many (i.e., 10+) self-published works, and few of them have me looking forward to a world without publishers. I appreciate "elitist" filters that still allow pulpy sci-fi and fantasy through. I'm not ready to see them leave quite yet.

sheepmullet 12y ago
"Perhaps one day we'll arrive at a place where crowd-sourced reviews adequately filter the wheat from the chaff in an editor- and marketing-less world, but I'm not convinced we are there just yet." How do you find books to read? My techniques are: Amazon suggestions, browsing at the library, blogs, forums, and following my favorite authors websites. None of these require a publisher.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  The difference is - for every 1 book that a reputable publisher puts out, they reject 1000. Now, perhaps 500 of those books might have OK, and maybe 50 of them might have been quite good, and it's entirely possible that the 1 book they did chose to publish, was not as good as 10-15 others they rejected - but, on the flip side, it's highly unlikely that the publisher is going to chose one of the 500 dogs that never deserve to see the light of day. The problem with Crowd sourced reviews, is that quite often, other people might like quite crappy books. The job of a publisher isn't to just find a book that they like, but that the general reading population will love. I appreciate and respect what the publisher does as part of their filtering - I just suspect they are extracting more value than they are worth. Hopefully established authors are able to negotiate increasingly more lucrative deals as a reflection of both the reduced risk, as well as the increased value they bring to the equation (as well as the reduced value that the publisher brings. I can't tell you who Stephen King's publisher is...)

kansface 12y ago

Music sales have seen negative growth for the last decade. The major labels don't exist because they provide value; they are just dying, slowly, as billion dollar businesses do.

TheOtherHobbes 12y ago

>They're in business because they provide value to the authors and artists Publishers provide value to themselves, not to authors or artists. Argument from quality: nope. Most publishers won't touch quality writing, because they know the market for it is limited. Joyce would never be published today. Austen might, but Austen is a bit difficult, so probably not. Lessing was turned down by a major publisher when she tried submitting under a different name, just to see what happened. I have my doubts if Pynchon or Vonnegut would be taken on today. (Has anyone of equivalent ability been signed in the last twenty five years?) There's a huge market for ghost-written celebrity blather nonsense, landfill SF and Fantasy, and two-glasses-of-wine-and-a-billionaire chicklit, and a much smaller market for self-absorbed litfic. But quality literature? Argument from services provided: nope again. Editors aren't quite two a penny, but good ones are available for hire. Likewise cover designers. Because you're paying them direct, you'll find that an editing process that takes publishers 18 months can be completed in a few weeks. Argument from marketing: Publishers literally won't lift a finger to help any author who isn't already selling in the millions. Argument from financial support: A couple of $k up front if you're very lucky, in return for losing 85% of future income. And you'll probably be offered a crappy work for hire contract. So - what is this 'value' that publishers provide?

ganeumann 12y ago
> Has anyone of equivalent ability been signed in the last twenty five years? Whether they're of equivalent ability is subjective, of course, but plenty of difficult but beautiful literary works are published every year. And I would bet that their first run is a lot larger than Ulysses' was :) Authors I've read in the past couple of years that were not mainstream but were published recently include Roberto Bolano, John Banville, Tom McCarthy, Eduardo Galeano...and I'm not much of a fiction reader. There's an enormous number of books published and almost all of them are not mainstream.
- TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
  Most of those have had established careers for a long time. McCarthy is relatively new, but he was soundly rejected by all the big pubs, published by a tiny house, and then the big pubs reconsidered when he started shifting copies. Which is almost exactly what happened to JK Rowling, only her books are slightly more accessible. The big pubs do not take risks. If a writer can show evidence of critical interest and existing strong sales, they suddenly become interested. Signing on the basis of a strong, original manuscript? Not any more. I'm sure there's an exception every year or five, but it's a good bet that unless you're incredibly lucky and/or know commissioning editors personally already because you all went to university together, the odds of getting in through the front door are not good now.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago

Music companies have already lost all of their storefronts. I think the last time I was in a record store was the early 1990s. The big record company executives aren't as rich as they once were, and they're starting to lose their grip on the recording and manufacturing process. The labels really are dying. They'll hold on a few more decades, but only because they'll not let go of their venue monopoly willingly. And books? When's the last time you were in a Borders? How long before all those old Barnes and Noble storefronts are just Halloween stores for 2 months out of the year? They too are losing control of the publishing and distributing process.

Consultant32452 12y ago

That's because people don't understand that publishers do a lot more than just "publish." They also provide editors, professional typescripting/page layout (whatever you call that), connect authors with artists for covers or other graphic work in/on the book itself, and marketing. Those are huge value ads that will continue to be important forever.

justincormack 12y ago
Authors can buy those services directly. Most of those people are freelance, publishers do not actually employ them anyway. Now some authors do not of course, perhaps disclosure of editors and artists and typographers might grow more.
- Consultant32452 12y ago
  Authors can buy those services directly but why bother trying to source and vet those things yourself? Some might, and I know the HN crowd is very much of the "I can do everything" mentality. But most people will be happy to pay an intermediary to do those things that are outside of their wheelhouse.
  - justincormack 12y ago
    The intermediary does not have to do it for a percentage of the sales though, these are jobs that are charged by the hour normally. Most freelancers do not want equity in your book, they want cash, so a sane intermediary would just charge a fixed fee.
    - czr80 12y ago
      What if the book doesn't sell? Who absorbs the loss on the upfront costs?