5 ms·

I expected to find the article silly, but I found it pretty solid. I think each point it makes about adverbs (as it applies to fiction writing) is pretty convin

I expected to find the article silly, but I found it pretty solid. I think each point it makes about adverbs (as it applies to fiction writing) is pretty convincing. For example, adverbs often do "tell" instead of "show." I think the rule is overstated. It shouldn't be "never use adverbs," but "review every adverb to see if it can be improved."

kazinator 12y ago
It should be, "do not use vague, semantically empty or inapplicable adverbs". For instance, one cannot really say something "snobbishly" because that isn't specific manner of talking; the content of the speech and the speaker's attitude may be snobbish, but that doesn't mean that the speech is executed in some manner that can be identified as a snobbish way of speaking. This is much like the adverb "furiously" in the famous sentence "colorless green ideas sleep furiously"; the adverb doesn't apply to sleeping, which isn't furious. And in that sentence, the conflicting and inapplicable adjectives are not off the hook, either!
- jimmaswell 12y ago
  'For instance, one cannot really say something "snobbishly" because that isn't specific manner of talking' What a bunch of pedantic nonsense. Nobody who speaks English actually views the word "said" so narrowly. 'the content of the speech and the speaker's attitude may be snobbish, but that doesn't mean that the speech is executed in some manner that can be identified as a snobbish way of speaking.' Yes it does. What planet are you from? An angry person talks in an angry way. A sad person talks sadly. A snobbish person will probably talk snobbishly. Did some English teacher who told you you can't end sentences in prepositions trick you into believing this?
  - kazinator 12y ago
    A person who believes to be socially superior could very well deliver their veiled insults using a cheerful and friendly external attitude. "snobbishly" doesn't really communicate anything specific. Is it referring to the speaker's inner belief? Or something about the face he is making while speaking? Body language? Tone? Especially, if the intent is to make a narrative remark that casts some kind of judgment or observation upon the content of the quotation, then the adverb is not a very good vehicle for that.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > It should be, "do not use vague, semantically empty or inapplicable adverbs". Which more properly generalizes to: "do not use vague, semantically empty or inapplicable words"; there's really nothing special about adverbs in this. > For instance, one cannot really say something "snobbishly" because that isn't specific manner of talking Certainly such a description is not factual but a description of the subjective feeling created in a particular observer, nevertheless this not vague, semantically empty, or inapplicable in all cases (it might be inappropriate if the situation called for a simple factual description, but descriptions of events which include references to a particular observer's subjective reaction are not always unintended.) > the content of the speech and the speaker's attitude may be snobbish, but that doesn't mean that the speech is executed in some manner that can be identified as a snobbish way of speaking. "Attitude" is a subjective external interpretation of the internal motivation beyond the manner of doing something, the actual concrete way in which an "attitude" such as snobbishness manifests well may be in the manner in which speech is executed (it may also be in the content of the speech, or in the combination of the content and the manner.) So I would say that "saying X snobbishly" is both potentially valid and, while still subjective, one step less removed from a factual description than saying that the speakers attitude was snobbish at the time of the speech act.
  - kazinator 12y ago
    Still, there are ways to describe the act, like "... said with his quivering nostrils held high in the air, and a sneering look of derision" or whatever. About attitude being internal or external; the narrator may have the point of view of being able to "see" the internal attitude; I was more thinking of that, than the external signs of attitude. There is a problem with adverbs which confuse the two: the author intends the adverb to describe the internal state, yet that is not clear from the adverb itself. "said snobbishly": are we to imagine that as having been externally visible, or does it mean that his choice of words was guided by an inner sense of social superiority, but actually delivered dead pan.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > till, there are ways to describe the act, like "... said with his quivering nostrils held high in the air, and a sneering look of derision" or whatever. A "sneering look of derision" is no less subjective, vague, etc., then "snobbishly". Yes, the first parts is a factual description of elements of the elements of the execution of the speech act which led to the conclusion that it was done "snobbishly", and might be more useful in certain circumstances. I already specifically acknowledged that there is a difference between objective factual descriptions of acts and subjective description of the impression an observer has of the act, and that "snobbishly"(like your "sneering look of derision") is clearly the latter, and inappropriate in context where the former is called for. But it is communicates real information, and different real information than either the factual or the subjective component of your alternative, even when both "snobbishly" and your alternative might be accurate from the point of view of the observer reporting them. Neither is categorically improper, which is best depends on what the speaker intends to communicate.
babuskov 12y ago
The problem I have with "show don't tell" is that sometimes you have a somewhat irrelevant fact, which is not important to the whole story or character development, but you need to state it to explain why the character took some course of action in a particular situation. If you decide to "show" instead of "tell", you would waste your readers time to "show" something not very relevant, which could be simply "told" and you could get on with the story.
- kazinator 12y ago
  You don't have to waste that many words. E.g. snobbishly can just turn into "with a smug look of derision", or whatever, and that's that. This is like 80% tell, 20% show.

kazinator 12y ago

It should be, "do not use vague, semantically empty or inapplicable adverbs". For instance, one cannot really say something "snobbishly" because that isn't specific manner of talking; the content of the speech and the speaker's attitude may be snobbish, but that doesn't mean that the speech is executed in some manner that can be identified as a snobbish way of speaking. This is much like the adverb "furiously" in the famous sentence "colorless green ideas sleep furiously"; the adverb doesn't apply to sleeping, which isn't furious. And in that sentence, the conflicting and inapplicable adjectives are not off the hook, either!

jimmaswell 12y ago
'For instance, one cannot really say something "snobbishly" because that isn't specific manner of talking' What a bunch of pedantic nonsense. Nobody who speaks English actually views the word "said" so narrowly. 'the content of the speech and the speaker's attitude may be snobbish, but that doesn't mean that the speech is executed in some manner that can be identified as a snobbish way of speaking.' Yes it does. What planet are you from? An angry person talks in an angry way. A sad person talks sadly. A snobbish person will probably talk snobbishly. Did some English teacher who told you you can't end sentences in prepositions trick you into believing this?
- kazinator 12y ago
  A person who believes to be socially superior could very well deliver their veiled insults using a cheerful and friendly external attitude. "snobbishly" doesn't really communicate anything specific. Is it referring to the speaker's inner belief? Or something about the face he is making while speaking? Body language? Tone? Especially, if the intent is to make a narrative remark that casts some kind of judgment or observation upon the content of the quotation, then the adverb is not a very good vehicle for that.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> It should be, "do not use vague, semantically empty or inapplicable adverbs". Which more properly generalizes to: "do not use vague, semantically empty or inapplicable words"; there's really nothing special about adverbs in this. > For instance, one cannot really say something "snobbishly" because that isn't specific manner of talking Certainly such a description is not factual but a description of the subjective feeling created in a particular observer, nevertheless this not vague, semantically empty, or inapplicable in all cases (it might be inappropriate if the situation called for a simple factual description, but descriptions of events which include references to a particular observer's subjective reaction are not always unintended.) > the content of the speech and the speaker's attitude may be snobbish, but that doesn't mean that the speech is executed in some manner that can be identified as a snobbish way of speaking. "Attitude" is a subjective external interpretation of the internal motivation beyond the manner of doing something, the actual concrete way in which an "attitude" such as snobbishness manifests well may be in the manner in which speech is executed (it may also be in the content of the speech, or in the combination of the content and the manner.) So I would say that "saying X snobbishly" is both potentially valid and, while still subjective, one step less removed from a factual description than saying that the speakers attitude was snobbish at the time of the speech act.
- kazinator 12y ago
  Still, there are ways to describe the act, like "... said with his quivering nostrils held high in the air, and a sneering look of derision" or whatever. About attitude being internal or external; the narrator may have the point of view of being able to "see" the internal attitude; I was more thinking of that, than the external signs of attitude. There is a problem with adverbs which confuse the two: the author intends the adverb to describe the internal state, yet that is not clear from the adverb itself. "said snobbishly": are we to imagine that as having been externally visible, or does it mean that his choice of words was guided by an inner sense of social superiority, but actually delivered dead pan.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > till, there are ways to describe the act, like "... said with his quivering nostrils held high in the air, and a sneering look of derision" or whatever. A "sneering look of derision" is no less subjective, vague, etc., then "snobbishly". Yes, the first parts is a factual description of elements of the elements of the execution of the speech act which led to the conclusion that it was done "snobbishly", and might be more useful in certain circumstances. I already specifically acknowledged that there is a difference between objective factual descriptions of acts and subjective description of the impression an observer has of the act, and that "snobbishly"(like your "sneering look of derision") is clearly the latter, and inappropriate in context where the former is called for. But it is communicates real information, and different real information than either the factual or the subjective component of your alternative, even when both "snobbishly" and your alternative might be accurate from the point of view of the observer reporting them. Neither is categorically improper, which is best depends on what the speaker intends to communicate.

babuskov 12y ago

The problem I have with "show don't tell" is that sometimes you have a somewhat irrelevant fact, which is not important to the whole story or character development, but you need to state it to explain why the character took some course of action in a particular situation. If you decide to "show" instead of "tell", you would waste your readers time to "show" something not very relevant, which could be simply "told" and you could get on with the story.

kazinator 12y ago
You don't have to waste that many words. E.g. snobbishly can just turn into "with a smug look of derision", or whatever, and that's that. This is like 80% tell, 20% show.