4 ms·

>'A great example of this is how often people point to outliers in discussing the structural barriers holding back poor kids. It's not rational.' So very true.

>'A great example of this is how often people point to outliers in discussing the structural barriers holding back poor kids. It's not rational.' So very true. I think of this as the 'Black President Dismissal'. I draw that from a certain set that will immediately raise the 2008 election as 'proof' that discrimination and inequality is an excuse and relic of the past. You see the same with successful immigrants - who have already self-selected for drive, determination, ability and likely a certain amount of luck in getting here - who are wielded the same way, held up as 'proof' that anyone can make it America.

smm2000 12y ago
You also should consider that self-selection of immigrants depends on the country they are from. Most immigrants from Asia (China, Japan, Vietnam, India) have drive, determination and often skills to succeed in US in first or second generation. Most of them were upper/middle-class in their country and are better educated than majority of their countrymen. Structural barriers for that category exist but easily overcome with superior work ethics and education. On the other hand immigrants from Mexico and Central America are mostly from rural places, poor, barely literate in Spanish and with lower average IQ than general population of their country. Adverse selection in action - it does not make sense for well educated person from Mexico to move to US illegally so only poor and uneducated cross the border. Illegal immigrants from those countries are not really equipped to succeed in American in either first or second generation and this leads to higher crime, gangs, and other negatives. I do not think education system is capable of fixing it.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  Do you have any numbers to back up your theory? I'll buy that it's true in certain demographics (say, immigrant Silicon Valley hackers vs immigrant seasonal farm workers), but there are/were an awful lot of Asian immigrants who come/came from poor backgrounds with not much more than the shirts on their backs.
  - smm2000 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_Un... and http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_905DRRB.pdf http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_905DRRB.pdf Asian American (mostly first or second generation immigrants) have average household income 14k higher than White Americans (mostly native). It's a pretty good indicator of education and class level of immigrants. Also Asians are famous for their work ethics and respect for eduction. Even if first generation is poor and work blue collar job, the second generation is much more likely to get college degree (~5x more likely than second generation Mexican).
  - hrktb 12y ago
    smm responded with numbers. But intuitively, you can compare the efforts needed to immigrate: crossing the border in the desert, or crossing the ocean. Even in the case of an immigrant with a low level of education from a poor background, there needs to be a group willing to make him/her cross the ocean. So from the start (s)he will be have been selected as worth the cost of the plane ticket, and will be integrated in a community/somewhere as soon as (s)he lands in the country to make up for the initial cost.
deleted 12y ago
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StavrosK 12y ago
Well, the fact that someone has made it is proof that anyone can make it. It doesn't mean that everyone will have the same likelihood of making it, though.
- incision 12y ago
  >'Well, the fact that someone has made it is proof that anyone can make it. It doesn't mean that everyone will have the same likelihood of making it, though.' Sure. Problem is, it takes a basic notion of statistics to grok a statement like that. That's something which, in the US at least, I perceive to be largely absent. What's said. / What it actually means. / What people hear. * Anyone can make it. / Anyone can make it with widely varying degrees of likelihood. / Anyone who doesn't make it is a lazy freeloader, except for me and people like me. * A are more likely than B to have a criminal record. / Though A are 25% more likely to have a criminal record, 75% of A have no criminal record. / A are all criminals. * On average, C are more intelligent than D. / The topic remains highly debatable, but some research has shown 1 standard deviation difference in IQ between C and D. Whether any observed differences are a matter of genetics or environmental factors is the interesting question. / All C are smarter than all D, period, look it up stupid.
- tormeh 12y ago
  Yeah, technically, Martin Luther King jr. is proof that any black could make it to an important political position in the 60s US, but a single sample only shows that the odds are non-zero.

smm2000 12y ago

You also should consider that self-selection of immigrants depends on the country they are from. Most immigrants from Asia (China, Japan, Vietnam, India) have drive, determination and often skills to succeed in US in first or second generation. Most of them were upper/middle-class in their country and are better educated than majority of their countrymen. Structural barriers for that category exist but easily overcome with superior work ethics and education. On the other hand immigrants from Mexico and Central America are mostly from rural places, poor, barely literate in Spanish and with lower average IQ than general population of their country. Adverse selection in action - it does not make sense for well educated person from Mexico to move to US illegally so only poor and uneducated cross the border. Illegal immigrants from those countries are not really equipped to succeed in American in either first or second generation and this leads to higher crime, gangs, and other negatives. I do not think education system is capable of fixing it.

jpatokal 12y ago
Do you have any numbers to back up your theory? I'll buy that it's true in certain demographics (say, immigrant Silicon Valley hackers vs immigrant seasonal farm workers), but there are/were an awful lot of Asian immigrants who come/came from poor backgrounds with not much more than the shirts on their backs.
- smm2000 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_Un... and http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_905DRRB.pdf http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_905DRRB.pdf Asian American (mostly first or second generation immigrants) have average household income 14k higher than White Americans (mostly native). It's a pretty good indicator of education and class level of immigrants. Also Asians are famous for their work ethics and respect for eduction. Even if first generation is poor and work blue collar job, the second generation is much more likely to get college degree (~5x more likely than second generation Mexican).
- hrktb 12y ago
  smm responded with numbers. But intuitively, you can compare the efforts needed to immigrate: crossing the border in the desert, or crossing the ocean. Even in the case of an immigrant with a low level of education from a poor background, there needs to be a group willing to make him/her cross the ocean. So from the start (s)he will be have been selected as worth the cost of the plane ticket, and will be integrated in a community/somewhere as soon as (s)he lands in the country to make up for the initial cost.

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StavrosK 12y ago

Well, the fact that someone has made it is proof that anyone can make it. It doesn't mean that everyone will have the same likelihood of making it, though.

incision 12y ago
>'Well, the fact that someone has made it is proof that anyone can make it. It doesn't mean that everyone will have the same likelihood of making it, though.' Sure. Problem is, it takes a basic notion of statistics to grok a statement like that. That's something which, in the US at least, I perceive to be largely absent. What's said. / What it actually means. / What people hear. * Anyone can make it. / Anyone can make it with widely varying degrees of likelihood. / Anyone who doesn't make it is a lazy freeloader, except for me and people like me. * A are more likely than B to have a criminal record. / Though A are 25% more likely to have a criminal record, 75% of A have no criminal record. / A are all criminals. * On average, C are more intelligent than D. / The topic remains highly debatable, but some research has shown 1 standard deviation difference in IQ between C and D. Whether any observed differences are a matter of genetics or environmental factors is the interesting question. / All C are smarter than all D, period, look it up stupid.
tormeh 12y ago
Yeah, technically, Martin Luther King jr. is proof that any black could make it to an important political position in the 60s US, but a single sample only shows that the odds are non-zero.