13 ms·

Building the Firefox browser for Firefox OS

143 points by rnyman 12y ago

darklajid 12y ago
Love some Firefox OS exposure. I'm a fan, really want to see the idea/project to succeed. If you think about purchasing a device, here's my take. - the Flame feels really solid and looks quite nice. - the performance is nice/comparable to other platforms - current version (running from git here) of the OS looks nice and modern - it is trivial to build and install it (given a supported device ofc) Ultimately it's not ready yet for daily usage for me, personally, but I suggest you check it out, give it a spin. I'm impressed how fast it improved already and hope to use the Flame as my default phone in the next couple month.
- asadotzler 12y ago
  The Flame is solid mid-range hardware and running Firefox OS 2.1 on it is pretty smooth. If you're a hacker type (presumably you are because you're reading Hacker News) and you don't have a heavy dependence on any particular app that isn't yet available for Firefox OS, it's ready or very nearly ready for you. If you're an app hacker, the Flame is the device for you. It's globally available for $145 + $25 S&H at http://www.everbuying.com/product549652.html http://www.everbuying.com/product549652.html
- gcb0 12y ago
  > If you think about purchasing a device don't. the work so far can all be done with emulator. DO NOT BUY A DEVICE. and as the parent just said, the performance on the emulator is MUCH better than the real device. it is just more waste in the world. Also, if anyone want a couple firefox phones msg me. i have a couple left. i got them when i believed that since they were going to be sold in stores, they would be consumer ready... and hence i needed to support them on my site... big mistake on all accounts. to being with they are not consumer ready. and it was close to impossible to find them in stores (despite them being advertised on billboards all over the city) anyway, if you want a phone, msg me. i have a few left. be warned that is harder to flash than a re-purposed android phone. much. much harder. (extremely closed components and hard to crate kernels) This is not hate on the project. just on their careless aggressiveness to go to market. the project has lots of future. just take your time before polluting the world with pure garbage.
  - darklajid 12y ago
    Hmm.. I know I can only comment on the Flame, but your trouble with flashing seems odd. Update sources? git pull; ./repo sync -d Build from source? ./build.sh Flash to device? ,/flash.sh Done. Device reboots into a shiny new version. I couldn't imagine an easier way tbh. Regarding the rest of your comment: I do have pain points¹. I was a bit disappointed at times. But the progress is good and the current state (git, not what my flame came with, 1.3) looks very, very promising. 1: Keyboard's UX decision to be all caps (a la iPhone), lack of a working xmpp client, lack of a mail client w/ idle (mandatory) and server side search (optional but really helpful) support. Solve these and I need no apps/a different platform.
    - darklajid 12y ago
      Lots of negativity here. I juat grabbed the Flame from upstairs again to test a browser feature. Now I remember the one single point of cannot-use. Keyboard? Usable, merely annoying. XMPP? I.. would even fall back on SMS. Mail client: It works, kinda. Not well, not nice, but it exists. The single one rant-worthy FxOS thing is the 'search'. It seems they integrate some weird recommendation engine. And that feels like browsing the web, ca. 2000 and no adblock. It even comes with predefined 'categories' (looks like folders, but it will search the web for 'games' for example and list the lowest of the low, the worst corners of the internet, the online scum - as 'apps' on your phone). Hrm.. Damn, that really turns me off every time I give it a try.. Can you rip it out/disable it? Nope.
      - hsivonen 12y ago
        > It seems they integrate some weird recommendation engine. > And that feels like browsing the web, ca. 2000 and no > adblock. It even comes with predefined 'categories' > (looks like folders, but it will search the web for > 'games' for example and list the lowest of the low, the > worst corners of the internet, the online scum - as > 'apps' on your phone). Hrm.. Damn, that really turns me > off every time I give it a try.. Can you rip it > out/disable it? Nope. Probably a relevant bug report: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1048771 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1048771
bugmen0t 12y ago
it has its problems here and there, but 2.0 on the Flame is really nice!
gcb0 12y ago
it's all hacks and fun until you realize you now can't run any extension or global change in the 'browser'. :( though another hack should be able to take of this easily... maybe even without forcing extension authors to change their extensions...
- fabrice_d 12y ago
  That will come, when I or someone else has time to finish https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923897 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923897 These won't be similar to the old Firefox extensions because that really does not make sense on FirefoxOS, but this is similar to user scripts and user styles.
diafygi 12y ago
I'm super excited to see improvements in the built-in App Manager in Firefox's developer tools. Hopefully it becomes a novice-friendly IDE that allows you to quickly start a new app, add some dependencies (jQuery, tweetNaCl, etc.), and start coding. Having a built-in IDE significantly lowers the barriers for locals in developing countries to quickly make apps that apply to their local community.
the_mitsuhiko 12y ago
I really wish Mozilla would put the resources currently behind Firefox OS and use them for something like a modern libgecko and standalone gecko wrapper that runs on different environments instead of making an OS. The blink/webkit monoculture is causing issues but every app is embedding it because gecko as a platform for embedding is essentially dead.
- fabrice_d 12y ago
  At this point making gecko nicely embeddable is not worth the cost in engineering resources compared to what it would bring in. Servo, the next generation browser is being designed to be easy to reuse and this is what Mozilla is focusing on in this area.
  - anon1385 12y ago
    Mozilla have no plans to replace Gecko with Servo. Servo is a research project.
- ianbicking 12y ago
  I think it is unlikely that the presence of a nice libgecko would change the dominance of Blink/WebKit on Android and iOS. Mozilla didn't really enter that fight, but even if we had I think we'd have lost (which frankly makes our lack of effort there seem wise).
- nnethercote 12y ago
  If I had a dollar for every time I saw the argument "I wish Mozilla would put resources into <project I like>, and stop wasting money on <project I don't like>"... I would have a big pile of dollars.
Lerc 12y ago
>I tried adding features to the browser app and every time I found something that wasn’t possible with current web technologies, I went back to Justin to get him to cast a new magic spell. As someone who working on a project that is beyond your average webapp [1][2], That is one of the most infuriating things to read. I need a Magic Justin! Where can you get a Magic Justin? [1] http://i.imgur.com/cLcirMy.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cLcirMy.jpg [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwNxDWwuY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwNxDWwuY4
- benfrancis 12y ago
  I recommend the dev-webapi mailing list. It is full of Magic Justins waiting to cast new magic spells for you. https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-webapi https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-webapi
wldcordeiro 12y ago
Isn't Firefox OS essentially a browser as an OS? Why have a dedicated Browser app, can someone explain to me how Firefox OS is architectured?
- asadotzler 12y ago
  If you read the article, you'll find this point addressed quite specifically.
soapdog 12y ago
Angry Guys, You're missing the point here. Firefox OS doesn't aim to compete with Android. If you're running Android then you can use the Firefox for Android browser and install the same apps. Firefox OS phones are targeted at people from emergent countries who can't afford smartphones with Android. There are countries where the cheapest Android device is about twice the price of Firefox OS. In this context, people from poorer chunks of society can buy Firefox OS and not get into debt. Firefox OS is a tool to bring more people to the internet. To pick people that are currently using old symbian phones, asha and other feature phone platforms and offer them an affordable priced smartphone that doesn't break the bank. Its made to be a simple experience for the first time smartphone buyer. Its not here to replace Android or iOS. There are millions of people that are experiencing the internet for the first time not thru a desktop/laptop machine but thru mobile devices. Lots of these people would get into debt to buy devices. Thats the target demographic. If you don't understand this then its very easy to compare the platform to Android expensive devices. And yes the platform is young but it is growing fast. If we achieve all our objectives the apps will work the same on Firefox OS and Android (thru Firefox for Android). The Web API is getting more complete and standarized. Soon you will be able to rely on HTML5 for your cross platform apps and not be locked in silos. This is more important than people realize. Being able to interoperate across platforms and devices is one of the key success features of the web. Now for a personal opinion. I have all the Firefox OS devices and some iOS and Androids in here. As a developer, Firefox OS is the most hackable and fun platform to program for. I have the absolute entry level phones and the current flame device running our nightly version. The flame is my currently daily driver and of course there are difficulties. Apps missing, features missing. Its getting better and it is open in a sense that no other platform is. I'd rather invest my time and effort on it now so that in the near future with have a great open platform that keep being a fanboy of some closed expensive thing where I have no say. iOS and Windows are closed platforms. Android is somewhat open but since their current tendency to move good bits into play services and not opening their built in apps such as gmail and also the fact that you can't contribute code and that the development is behind a closed door makes it less open and desirable in the long run. We can bitch all day here about missing features in any young platform. The fact is, if you care for an open source mobile platform then you can join the Mozilla community and help build one. If you don't care about open source but care about society, you can also join and help build a system that is affordable in emergent countries. If you don't care about any of the stuff I mentioned, you can keep using whatever you'd like. We're not forcing anyone to do anything. We're building this platform because the world needs a mobile operating system that is developed in the open and that is truly open source. Its young but its learning tricks every night...

143 points by rnyman 12y ago

Love some Firefox OS exposure. I'm a fan, really want to see the idea/project to succeed. If you think about purchasing a device, here's my take. - the Flame feels really solid and looks quite nice. - the performance is nice/comparable to other platforms - current version (running from git here) of the OS looks nice and modern - it is trivial to build and install it (given a supported device ofc) Ultimately it's not ready yet for daily usage for me, personally, but I suggest you check it out, give it a spin. I'm impressed how fast it improved already and hope to use the Flame as my default phone in the next couple month.

asadotzler 12y ago
The Flame is solid mid-range hardware and running Firefox OS 2.1 on it is pretty smooth. If you're a hacker type (presumably you are because you're reading Hacker News) and you don't have a heavy dependence on any particular app that isn't yet available for Firefox OS, it's ready or very nearly ready for you. If you're an app hacker, the Flame is the device for you. It's globally available for $145 + $25 S&H at http://www.everbuying.com/product549652.html http://www.everbuying.com/product549652.html
gcb0 12y ago
> If you think about purchasing a device don't. the work so far can all be done with emulator. DO NOT BUY A DEVICE. and as the parent just said, the performance on the emulator is MUCH better than the real device. it is just more waste in the world. Also, if anyone want a couple firefox phones msg me. i have a couple left. i got them when i believed that since they were going to be sold in stores, they would be consumer ready... and hence i needed to support them on my site... big mistake on all accounts. to being with they are not consumer ready. and it was close to impossible to find them in stores (despite them being advertised on billboards all over the city) anyway, if you want a phone, msg me. i have a few left. be warned that is harder to flash than a re-purposed android phone. much. much harder. (extremely closed components and hard to crate kernels) This is not hate on the project. just on their careless aggressiveness to go to market. the project has lots of future. just take your time before polluting the world with pure garbage.
- darklajid 12y ago
  Hmm.. I know I can only comment on the Flame, but your trouble with flashing seems odd. Update sources? git pull; ./repo sync -d Build from source? ./build.sh Flash to device? ,/flash.sh Done. Device reboots into a shiny new version. I couldn't imagine an easier way tbh. Regarding the rest of your comment: I do have pain points¹. I was a bit disappointed at times. But the progress is good and the current state (git, not what my flame came with, 1.3) looks very, very promising. 1: Keyboard's UX decision to be all caps (a la iPhone), lack of a working xmpp client, lack of a mail client w/ idle (mandatory) and server side search (optional but really helpful) support. Solve these and I need no apps/a different platform.
  - darklajid 12y ago
    Lots of negativity here. I juat grabbed the Flame from upstairs again to test a browser feature. Now I remember the one single point of cannot-use. Keyboard? Usable, merely annoying. XMPP? I.. would even fall back on SMS. Mail client: It works, kinda. Not well, not nice, but it exists. The single one rant-worthy FxOS thing is the 'search'. It seems they integrate some weird recommendation engine. And that feels like browsing the web, ca. 2000 and no adblock. It even comes with predefined 'categories' (looks like folders, but it will search the web for 'games' for example and list the lowest of the low, the worst corners of the internet, the online scum - as 'apps' on your phone). Hrm.. Damn, that really turns me off every time I give it a try.. Can you rip it out/disable it? Nope.
    - hsivonen 12y ago
      > It seems they integrate some weird recommendation engine. > And that feels like browsing the web, ca. 2000 and no > adblock. It even comes with predefined 'categories' > (looks like folders, but it will search the web for > 'games' for example and list the lowest of the low, the > worst corners of the internet, the online scum - as > 'apps' on your phone). Hrm.. Damn, that really turns me > off every time I give it a try.. Can you rip it > out/disable it? Nope. Probably a relevant bug report: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1048771 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1048771

bugmen0t 12y ago

it has its problems here and there, but 2.0 on the Flame is really nice!

gcb0 12y ago

it's all hacks and fun until you realize you now can't run any extension or global change in the 'browser'. :( though another hack should be able to take of this easily... maybe even without forcing extension authors to change their extensions...

fabrice_d 12y ago
That will come, when I or someone else has time to finish https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923897 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923897 These won't be similar to the old Firefox extensions because that really does not make sense on FirefoxOS, but this is similar to user scripts and user styles.

diafygi 12y ago

I'm super excited to see improvements in the built-in App Manager in Firefox's developer tools. Hopefully it becomes a novice-friendly IDE that allows you to quickly start a new app, add some dependencies (jQuery, tweetNaCl, etc.), and start coding. Having a built-in IDE significantly lowers the barriers for locals in developing countries to quickly make apps that apply to their local community.

the_mitsuhiko 12y ago

I really wish Mozilla would put the resources currently behind Firefox OS and use them for something like a modern libgecko and standalone gecko wrapper that runs on different environments instead of making an OS. The blink/webkit monoculture is causing issues but every app is embedding it because gecko as a platform for embedding is essentially dead.

fabrice_d 12y ago
At this point making gecko nicely embeddable is not worth the cost in engineering resources compared to what it would bring in. Servo, the next generation browser is being designed to be easy to reuse and this is what Mozilla is focusing on in this area.
- anon1385 12y ago
  Mozilla have no plans to replace Gecko with Servo. Servo is a research project.
ianbicking 12y ago
I think it is unlikely that the presence of a nice libgecko would change the dominance of Blink/WebKit on Android and iOS. Mozilla didn't really enter that fight, but even if we had I think we'd have lost (which frankly makes our lack of effort there seem wise).
nnethercote 12y ago
If I had a dollar for every time I saw the argument "I wish Mozilla would put resources into <project I like>, and stop wasting money on <project I don't like>"... I would have a big pile of dollars.

Lerc 12y ago

>I tried adding features to the browser app and every time I found something that wasn’t possible with current web technologies, I went back to Justin to get him to cast a new magic spell. As someone who working on a project that is beyond your average webapp [1][2], That is one of the most infuriating things to read. I need a Magic Justin! Where can you get a Magic Justin? [1] http://i.imgur.com/cLcirMy.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cLcirMy.jpg [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwNxDWwuY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwNxDWwuY4

benfrancis 12y ago
I recommend the dev-webapi mailing list. It is full of Magic Justins waiting to cast new magic spells for you. https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-webapi https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-webapi

wldcordeiro 12y ago

Isn't Firefox OS essentially a browser as an OS? Why have a dedicated Browser app, can someone explain to me how Firefox OS is architectured?

asadotzler 12y ago
If you read the article, you'll find this point addressed quite specifically.

soapdog 12y ago

Angry Guys, You're missing the point here. Firefox OS doesn't aim to compete with Android. If you're running Android then you can use the Firefox for Android browser and install the same apps. Firefox OS phones are targeted at people from emergent countries who can't afford smartphones with Android. There are countries where the cheapest Android device is about twice the price of Firefox OS. In this context, people from poorer chunks of society can buy Firefox OS and not get into debt. Firefox OS is a tool to bring more people to the internet. To pick people that are currently using old symbian phones, asha and other feature phone platforms and offer them an affordable priced smartphone that doesn't break the bank. Its made to be a simple experience for the first time smartphone buyer. Its not here to replace Android or iOS. There are millions of people that are experiencing the internet for the first time not thru a desktop/laptop machine but thru mobile devices. Lots of these people would get into debt to buy devices. Thats the target demographic. If you don't understand this then its very easy to compare the platform to Android expensive devices. And yes the platform is young but it is growing fast. If we achieve all our objectives the apps will work the same on Firefox OS and Android (thru Firefox for Android). The Web API is getting more complete and standarized. Soon you will be able to rely on HTML5 for your cross platform apps and not be locked in silos. This is more important than people realize. Being able to interoperate across platforms and devices is one of the key success features of the web. Now for a personal opinion. I have all the Firefox OS devices and some iOS and Androids in here. As a developer, Firefox OS is the most hackable and fun platform to program for. I have the absolute entry level phones and the current flame device running our nightly version. The flame is my currently daily driver and of course there are difficulties. Apps missing, features missing. Its getting better and it is open in a sense that no other platform is. I'd rather invest my time and effort on it now so that in the near future with have a great open platform that keep being a fanboy of some closed expensive thing where I have no say. iOS and Windows are closed platforms. Android is somewhat open but since their current tendency to move good bits into play services and not opening their built in apps such as gmail and also the fact that you can't contribute code and that the development is behind a closed door makes it less open and desirable in the long run. We can bitch all day here about missing features in any young platform. The fact is, if you care for an open source mobile platform then you can join the Mozilla community and help build one. If you don't care about open source but care about society, you can also join and help build a system that is affordable in emergent countries. If you don't care about any of the stuff I mentioned, you can keep using whatever you'd like. We're not forcing anyone to do anything. We're building this platform because the world needs a mobile operating system that is developed in the open and that is truly open source. Its young but its learning tricks every night...