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From the article: "Some experts expressed concerns that trends are leading to a future in which most people become shallow consumers of information, endangerin

by cle 12y ago

From the article: "Some experts expressed concerns that trends are leading to a future in which most people become shallow consumers of information, endangering society." A key part of this argument is that people are becoming (or are going to become) more shallow than those in the past. But how shallow were people in the past? I have a sneaky suspicion that many of these dissenters are just being nostalgic. Anything beyond their own lifespan is also questionable--how do we know how well people were able to focus in previous generations? Are people _really_ more shallow than they used to be, or does it just feel like that? This whole topic incredibly nebulous, so I question the value of jumping to these conclusions when we don't even have a clear understanding of what we're talking about in the first place.

sriku 12y ago
I recall reading somewhere that when books were invented, people thought they'd degrade the mental ability of people to accumulate and hold "wisdom". Did that happen? And even before that, when writing was first invented, it was some kind of devil magic. Now, where might I begin finding out where this might've been said?
- mjklin 12y ago
  ...but when they came to the letters, “This invention, O king,” said Theuth, “will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered.” But Thamus replied, “Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. “For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise.” (Plato, Phaedrus 274c-275b)
- walterbell 12y ago
  Plato (in Phaedrus) quoting Socrates quoting Egyptian king Thamus, http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=3894 http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=3894 A more modern critique could talk about personalized caching/flushing strategies and the role of latency in: brain memory, motor memory, paper, offline device, online device, public search, private search & classified search. "Memory Palaces" are still used today, see http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/remembering-as-an-extreme-sport/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/remembering-as-an-e... and http://artofmemory.com/ http://artofmemory.com/
- justinpombrio 12y ago
  Randall Munroe put together a pretty solid list of such nay-saying: http://xkcd.com/1227/ http://xkcd.com/1227/
- megablast 12y ago
  So what are you saying is since some people were wrong in the past, then these people are wrong now?? About something very different.
fringees 12y ago
It's definitely a hypothesis I'd like to see tested, because I do belive the increasing shallowness and leaning on technology as a crutch is a real phenomenon in Western society. A good test might be how people fare when stripped of their technology and conveniences, for some definitions of faring and technology. Testing this ethically might be tough, though.
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  I'm at a loss for how your proposed test actually tests anything of relevance to modern society which is built explicitly on the notion that groups of interdependent specialists greatly outperform similarly sized groups of independent generalists (see: Adam Smith and his pin factory). Sure, you could concoct a survivalist rebuild-the-world scenario in which the tables would turn, but you could play the same game for any other specialization in existence ("generalist" becomes just another type of specialist when time constraints are taken into account). I would choose a society where everyone knew how to use google, wikipedia, and google scholar over one where every individual could list off the pressure, temperature, and catalyst of the Haber process any day of the week.
- ef4 12y ago
  > leaning on technology as a crutch... Yeah, kids these days with their "clothing" and "language" and "fire" have it so soft. Clearly we should worry about how well they would fare without those things.
  - WhoBeI 12y ago
    Without fire you need to huddle together to keep warm. That becomes interesting when there are no clothes involved. Language becomes unnecessary at that point. :)
- WhoBeI 12y ago
  Stripped of modern technology you mean? I imagine they would just visit the library.
  - 12y ago
bsder 12y ago
> A key part of this argument is that people are becoming (or are going to become) more shallow than those in the past. I don't think I agree with this. What I do agree with is that modern society, and especially internet usage, seems to degrade the ability to concentrate. I know that if I have to spend too much "computer time", my ability to stay focused and think hard about a single task seems to degrade. For one example, it takes me 2 or 3 books until my ability to concentrate and read the book flows rather than requiring actual willful effort.
kijin 12y ago
It's the same nostalgic lamentation that everyone has been telling for thousands of years. Ancient Greeks used to complain to one another about "kids these days" being ruined by the latest trends. And yet, here we are, thousands of years later, casually toying with the kinds of knowledge that Aristotle would have killed to have a glimpse of. 20 years later: "OMG kids these days are so accustomed to 3D holographic interfaces, they can't seem to comprehend any information presented on a flat surface!" The only solution to shallow thinking is a good education that encourages critical thinking about things that matter. Electronic gadgets are little more than convenient scapegoats that people can safely blame in order to divert attention from their failure to come up with a proper solution.

by cle 12y ago

sriku 12y ago

I recall reading somewhere that when books were invented, people thought they'd degrade the mental ability of people to accumulate and hold "wisdom". Did that happen? And even before that, when writing was first invented, it was some kind of devil magic. Now, where might I begin finding out where this might've been said?

mjklin 12y ago
...but when they came to the letters, “This invention, O king,” said Theuth, “will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered.” But Thamus replied, “Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. “For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise.” (Plato, Phaedrus 274c-275b)
walterbell 12y ago
Plato (in Phaedrus) quoting Socrates quoting Egyptian king Thamus, http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=3894 http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=3894 A more modern critique could talk about personalized caching/flushing strategies and the role of latency in: brain memory, motor memory, paper, offline device, online device, public search, private search & classified search. "Memory Palaces" are still used today, see http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/remembering-as-an-extreme-sport/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/remembering-as-an-e... and http://artofmemory.com/ http://artofmemory.com/
justinpombrio 12y ago
Randall Munroe put together a pretty solid list of such nay-saying: http://xkcd.com/1227/ http://xkcd.com/1227/
megablast 12y ago
So what are you saying is since some people were wrong in the past, then these people are wrong now?? About something very different.

fringees 12y ago

It's definitely a hypothesis I'd like to see tested, because I do belive the increasing shallowness and leaning on technology as a crutch is a real phenomenon in Western society. A good test might be how people fare when stripped of their technology and conveniences, for some definitions of faring and technology. Testing this ethically might be tough, though.

jjoonathan 12y ago
I'm at a loss for how your proposed test actually tests anything of relevance to modern society which is built explicitly on the notion that groups of interdependent specialists greatly outperform similarly sized groups of independent generalists (see: Adam Smith and his pin factory). Sure, you could concoct a survivalist rebuild-the-world scenario in which the tables would turn, but you could play the same game for any other specialization in existence ("generalist" becomes just another type of specialist when time constraints are taken into account). I would choose a society where everyone knew how to use google, wikipedia, and google scholar over one where every individual could list off the pressure, temperature, and catalyst of the Haber process any day of the week.
ef4 12y ago
> leaning on technology as a crutch... Yeah, kids these days with their "clothing" and "language" and "fire" have it so soft. Clearly we should worry about how well they would fare without those things.
- WhoBeI 12y ago
  Without fire you need to huddle together to keep warm. That becomes interesting when there are no clothes involved. Language becomes unnecessary at that point. :)
WhoBeI 12y ago
Stripped of modern technology you mean? I imagine they would just visit the library.
- 12y ago

bsder 12y ago

> A key part of this argument is that people are becoming (or are going to become) more shallow than those in the past. I don't think I agree with this. What I do agree with is that modern society, and especially internet usage, seems to degrade the ability to concentrate. I know that if I have to spend too much "computer time", my ability to stay focused and think hard about a single task seems to degrade. For one example, it takes me 2 or 3 books until my ability to concentrate and read the book flows rather than requiring actual willful effort.

kijin 12y ago

It's the same nostalgic lamentation that everyone has been telling for thousands of years. Ancient Greeks used to complain to one another about "kids these days" being ruined by the latest trends. And yet, here we are, thousands of years later, casually toying with the kinds of knowledge that Aristotle would have killed to have a glimpse of. 20 years later: "OMG kids these days are so accustomed to 3D holographic interfaces, they can't seem to comprehend any information presented on a flat surface!" The only solution to shallow thinking is a good education that encourages critical thinking about things that matter. Electronic gadgets are little more than convenient scapegoats that people can safely blame in order to divert attention from their failure to come up with a proper solution.