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Twitch implements YouTube-like system for blocking copyrighted audio
- minimaxir 12y agoThis has led to the logical conclusion of an official Twitch broadcast getting hit with a copyright audio penalty. https://twitter.com/xkeepah/status/497147167803310080 https://twitter.com/xkeepah/status/497147167803310080
- eswat 12y agoI’m surprised this isn’ making more waves here. If you check out a video from almost any user profile that primarily plays PC games[1] or is a speedrunner[2], you’ll find most of their videos muted. This is not going to end well… [1] http://www.twitch.tv/kaceytron/c/4761968 http://www.twitch.tv/kaceytron/c/4761968 [2] http://www.twitch.tv/iateyourpie/b/552446830 http://www.twitch.tv/iateyourpie/b/552446830
- jschmitz28 12y agoIt's a big deal, but not nearly as big as it would be if it affected live streams as well. Vods are much less popular. The top videos of all time have around a half million views or less. Top videos this week have around 40000: http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/all http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/all http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/week http://www.twitch.tv/directory/videos/week
- mmanfrin 12y agoI get the feeling that this does not affect streams currently because if this were turned on for streams, nearly every single stream would be shut off -- I cannot think of a single stream I've watched that does not have ambient music in the background.
- Joona 12y agoIt will affect live streams at some point.
- jschmitz28 12y agoIs this speculation or do you have a source? Your comment is stated as a fact but I haven't seen a statement from Twitch about this.
- fletchowns 12y agoIt seems like a logical progression of things, probably just a bit more difficult to implement. I'd guess it's not long til we see it.
- Joona 12y agoYup. From what I've heard, Youtube already has something like that on their livestreams.
- paraxisi 12y agoCue the mass exodus to other services that don't attempt to police content proactively.
- onewaystreet 12y agoAnd if any of those services ever get as big as twitch they will be forced to as well.
- wldcordeiro 12y agoPrecisely, the problem isn't Twitch implementing this. It's the copyright system that forces them to do this.
- superuser2 12y agoNo, it really isn't. Under the DMCA they are free from liability if they just sit there and respond to DMCA requests as they come. Someone could set up a bot to send DMCA requests under the same algorithm, but they'd be guilty of perjury if they lied.
- onewaystreet 12y agoThat stops being realistic when you get to the size where you have thousands of DMCA requests coming in a day.
- coralreef 12y agoWon't happen, example: youtube.
- cataflam 12y agoYouTube didn't have much competition when it happened. Twitch is strong, but not as dominant as YouTube was. There exist alternative services (HitBox, Azubu,...).
- wldcordeiro 12y agoI'm not surprised they did and at the same time this just makes it obvious that the way in which copyright for "performances" is done needs to be fixed.
- mmanfrin 12y agoSo if you stream a game and listen to a single 3 minute song, 30 minutes of your stream will be muted. This is a fantastic means of protecting content creators!
- ineedtosleep 12y agoCrazy idea: Can't a streamer just setup their own live streaming audio server (i.e. Shoutcast and Icecast) and tell users to listen to that while watching their Twitch? This way, their videos can get archived later for on-demand use and the livestream isn't affected /too/ much.
- baddox 12y agoI've always thought that streaming sites should provide a convenience layer for this.
- Igglyboo 12y agoYea but that's a huge hassle for the users and especially those who hop from channel to channel.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- fletchowns 12y agoI think it would be difficult to keep the audio and video in sync if they were separate streams. The delay for Twitch streams can be unpredictable.
- baddox 12y agoIf you could get the time difference to within the duration of an average song, it wouldn't be so bad. It would be messed up if the streamer tries to sing along, but that's about it. I think the main reason viewers like streams with music is just to share in the streamer's tastes and perhaps discover new music.
- fletchowns 12y agoAh yup that makes sense, for some reason I was thinking the shoutcast stream would entirely handle the streamers audio, rather than just the music portion of the audio (which makes a lot more sense...)
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- baddox 12y agoThere's no way to know if this has anything to do with the (as far as I know unconfirmed) rumors of their acquisition by Google, but it's interesting that in e-sports communities the general response to those rumors was "oh well, there goes streaming with background music."
- radley 12y agoconfirmed: http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-twitch-confirmed-joins-youtube-for-new-video-empire/ http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-twi...
- romanovcode 12y agoI think it has everything to do with it being acquired by google.
- crazypyro 12y agoOkay, can the announcement of the Google buyout happen already? If it wasn't obvious before, it sure is now... Also, from the blog post: "Starting today, Twitch will be implementing technology intended to help broadcasters avoid the storage of videos containing unauthorized third-party audio. " We're removing content because we want to help broadcasters, yeaaaaa, okay buddies!
- radley 12y agoA week ago: http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-twitch-confirmed-joins-youtube-for-new-video-empire/ http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/24/googles-1b-purchase-of-twi...
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- enneff 12y agoNot sure why the comments here are so negative. People make money from Twitch, and most of them have music playing in the background. You can't just take someone else's work and use it to improve your own without expecting to compensate them. I hope that the policing of mainstream commercial music use will drive content creators to use music owned by small companies and independents. Twitch should do an integration with Bandcamp or something.
- DavidBradbury 12y agoWhile some people certainly don't think that Twitch should do anything at all, I think most people have a problem with how poorly it seems to be implemented thus far. False positives are the biggest thing that pisses me off about any system like this. Hurting legitimate content creators is not acceptable.
- darkmighty 12y agoTwo counterpoints: 1) Often certain music is played simply as a "cultural reference" -- e.g. making fun of it, having it in the background shortly for dramatic or comical effect, and so on. I would think most classify as fair use; however removals will likely be irrevocable and done with parsimony. 2) Even if the broadcaster would like to give up some of his revenue for copyright, he won't be able to. It just doesn't make much economic sense for large brands to issue small licenses, yet it does make sense to go after small violators since they're allowed to do it en masse. The point is, viewers lose culturally and copyright holders don't actually gain anything.
- enneff 12y agoI don't see what we "lose culturally" by dropping the use of commercial music. There is a plethora of great, liberally-licensed great music out there.
- superuser2 12y agoNo, there really isn't, or advertisers wouldn't be buying public performance rights anymore.
- bobbo_ 12y agoThe system appears to be blocking copyrighted in-game audio, see [1] and [2]. [1] http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246 http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246 [2] http://www.twitch.tv/adam_ak/b/555134005 http://www.twitch.tv/adam_ak/b/555134005
- jdoliner 12y agoI'd really like to see Twitch implement a system where streamers could upload separate audio channels for their videos. That way a single channel could be muted for infringement without muting the others. You wouldn't have to lose the audio from the game and player commentary, which is often integral to the video, just because a copyrighted song was playing in the background. This is actually a feature that would have some value to me as a user because I often watch streams where I don't like the music but can't turn it off without losing the caster's commentary which often times the best part. This does put an extra burden on casters but maybe the value of degrading gracefully in the face of copyright complaints will make it worth it.
- radley 12y agoTwitch AMA tomorrow morning (Thu 7/8) http://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/2csuhs/twitchtv_will_have_an_ama_thursday_78/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/2csuhs/twitchtv_will...
- ihuman 12y agoOn a subreddit they have control over. I won't be surprised if they removed questions that paint them in a negative light.
- onewaystreet 12y agoGenerally people doing AMAs just ignore the controversial questions. In this case people want to paint Twitch as the villain but they are just following the law. I expect them to say that if they didn't do this they/streamers could get sued.
- jonknee 12y agoFascinating moves by the company. They gain users by looking the other way for illegal sports broadcasts which made up the majority of watched content at Justin.tv. Next they pivot to e-sports with Twitch which is a huge success but also plagued by rampant copyright issues (this is the music, but the actual broadcast of some games may be illegal). They look the other way again until they decide to cash out, which means a quick clean up before the billion dollar pay day. The lesson to VC backed startups here should be to ignore the laws you don't want to bother with until the last possible second (and then some more!), preferably with offer paperwork in your hands. Airbnb has shown that this can scale.
- jonknee 12y agoOh and I forgot to add, the best part is that Twitch is now cleaning up for a pay day from the mother of all law ignoring startups--YouTube. The circle of startups.
- Houshalter 12y agoDid they actually ignore DMCA requests or violate copyright themselves in any way? Or are you just upset they didn't implement an automated takedown system until now?
- jonknee 12y agoThey testified to Congress that they were doing their best to fight piracy while at the same time all of the top feeds on Justin.tv were pirated. It was a joke. DMCA requests were not meant to combat live programming--get one down and another pops up. In three hours the point is moot.
- kevingadd 12y agoSome interesting bits about this system and how it's implemented: Blocking is implemented using volume control in the flash player. The flash player has multiple bugs that currently undo the blocking. Twitch already has an API used for playing VODs and streams on devices that don't run Flash, and as a result of volume-control-based muting, muting does not apply to any of these devices (or software using the API, of which there is plenty). Worse still, not only does muting not apply to the API, but ads don't show up either. So muting will (at least in the short term) drive users to playback via API in order to avoid it, and coincidentally reduce ad impressions. Ideally Twitch will address this in the future by muting the actual VODs at the file level instead of in the player. The Content ID detection database they're using (from a third party, Audible Magic) includes many game soundtracks and other licensed pieces of audio that are used legally by actual games. Twitch calls this out in their announcement, so they knew it would be happening. As a result, VODs that merely contain playback of a real game end up muted - one of the examples going around the web right now is footage of Fallout 3, because FO3's soundtrack contained some licensed songs from the 50s/60s that are in Audible Magic's database. [3] Suppressing copyrighted music from your streams is complicated further by the fact that the database is stated to contain ambient audio and not just music; many games do not have a separate volume slider for ambient audio, even if they have one for music. Suppressing that audio may require muting the game entirely. Some games also tie licensed music into game-relevant content; Fallout 3 is one of them - the in-game radio has narration and dialogue from plot-relevant characters mixed in between the songs. Muting the audio or not using the in-game radio would actually hinder the experience of playing the game in a measurable way as a result. Services like Audible Magic also have a long track record of asserting incorrect ownership for content. Many indie game developers & musicians were hit by an erroneous banwave as a result of this technology last year due to a shady service called TuneCore asserting ownership of music published by their customers - despite their customers not authorizing this behavior. [1] Because Content ID takedowns on YouTube (and now Twitch) do not operate through the legal system or the DMCA hierarchy, there is no legal recourse available to content creators or rightsholders in this scenario, and the companies that have deals with YT/Twitch are free to siphon ad money or take down content whenever and wherever they like. With DMCA takedown notices there is a counter-notice mechanism, but since these content ID systems are based on private agreements between companies, no such mechanism exists. The service twitch uses charges per-request for content identification so this likely influenced the decision to mute 30-minute blocks instead of at a smaller level of granularity. At the size of Twitch's content database they may be paying a significant amount of money to Audible Magic for this service. [2] [1] http://www.vg247.com/2013/12/18/99-of-youtube-gaming-channels-will-die-soon-copyright-strike-barrage-discussed/ http://www.vg247.com/2013/12/18/99-of-youtube-gaming-channel... [2] https://www.audiblemagic.com/copyright-compliance-pricing/ https://www.audiblemagic.com/copyright-compliance-pricing/ [3] http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246 http://www.twitch.tv/dansgaming/b/550331246
- djloche 12y agoWhat if Google, instead of blocking the stream, just reserved a portion of the revenue generated from that video, for the rights holder, equal to but not greater than the amount needed for traditional over the air licensing?
- bobbo_ 12y agoAlternatively, could they not just use the system as a response to DMCA requests? Mute out the offending portion when a rights-holder complains and leave (probably) the vast majority of videos generating ad revenue, without large portions of the video being muted pro-actively (and therefore basically unwatchable).
- PauloManrique 12y agoThe system is even flagging someone singing. heres the youtube ver, unmuted http://youtu.be/E3GpMaVdmZo?t=7s http://youtu.be/E3GpMaVdmZo?t=7s twitch archive http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/b/555065724 http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/b/555065724
- iLoch 12y agoIt's also going to block audio in games like Grand Theft Auto and FIFA which constantly feature copywritten content (in game menus and "radio stations" in game). Maybe they'll develop lists of these songs and not block them?
- myhf 12y agoWouldn't it be easier for them to just buy an unlimited license for "Darude - Sandstorm"?
- Houshalter 12y agoAnyone know how this system works? It may be possible to exploit the algorithm to find small transformations that disrupt it's ability to identify audio. This has been shown to be possible in some neural net based systems, for example.
- ASneakyFox 12y agoWhy is this bad? They ought to pay for the music like every one else. Twitch isn't a free radio system.