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Yes and they all are powerful goitrogenic plants. Don't eat them raw... unless you hate your thyroid! When I see people sipping on raw kale juice, I feel sorry

by kolev 12y ago

Yes and they all are powerful goitrogenic plants. Don't eat them raw... unless you hate your thyroid! When I see people sipping on raw kale juice, I feel sorry for them! Raw is not always better! Would you eat raw potatoes, for example, or raw mushrooms (toxins), or spinach (rich in oxalates)?

gohrt 12y ago
Source? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen makes the same claims, but has a long list of indicted veggies, with notably missing/broken sources. raw mushrooms and raw spinach are certainly popular...
ejstronge 12y ago
I just looked this up in the PubMed biomedical literature database and there aren't many studies that correlate the goitrogenic activity of cabbages, et al., to human thyroid activity. What's the impact of having kale juice once a day for a year? What if we simply consume extra iodine? Send links to papers if you have any primary references.
- kolev 12y ago
  Well, a 16 oz bottle of juiced kale is a lot of kale! I've seen people having 2-3 of those a day. It's not precise science to know how much extra iodine to consume, I think. Raw kale is known for ages to make livestock sick. Either Dr. Fuhrman or Dr. Weil recommended that the best way to take full advantage of kale is to blend it, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then put it in a soup or another cooked meal.
  - rosser 12y ago
    Going by the argument that kale makes livestock sick, humans should never consume garlic, or chocolate, because they're poisonous to dogs and cats. Different animals have different metabolisms.
    - kolev 12y ago
      Not that this is a PubMed article (which the crowd here takes as the only truth), but it's an interesting read nonetheless: http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale-habit-slowly-destroying-your-health-and-world http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale... Edit: Sorry, I liked to the wrong article! Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't eat kale - just that it's not justified or even scientifically correct to eat it raw! Here's the article I wanted to link to: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-kale-and-how-to-eat-around-it http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-kale-a...
      - obastani 12y ago
        Did you read that article fully? It's a satire (see the last section)...
      - jessaustin 12y ago
        Did you actually read that article? Especially the last section, which contains this actually good advice: But when you see an article that demonizes a food, think about whether or not there are citations and follow those citations. Ask yourself whether they apply to human beings eating a diverse diet with adequete [sic] calories. Or whether they involve very high concentrations no human being eats, isolated chemicals, or preparations that no normal human would put on their plate. EDIT: Now that you've added an article, I recommend you read the first as preparation for reading the second with an appropriately critical mind.
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        Your new article links this article: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/thyroid-doc-kale-problems-theoretical-but-in-reality-very-low-to-minuscule http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/thyroid-doc-kale-proble... The endocrinologist answering questions says Basically the goitrogens are challenges to the thyroid. But in the absence of iodine deficiency, substantial or prolonged ingestion of dietary goitrogens and lastly the absence of an underlying thyroid disorder, the risk in this country of having problems in this area are very, very low, almost minuscule. Again, that’s because the vast majority of people have adequate iodine levels to counteract the effect of goitrogens. So modest consumption doesn't seem like it is going to bother healthy people any.
  - adrr 12y ago
    Doesn't this apply to everything? Anything consumed in excess will probably have negative effects. A balanced diet being the most optimal.
    - kolev 12y ago
      "Balanced" according to which methodology? To that vilifying saturated fats, for example, or the new that does the opposite, for example? When it comes to nutrition, there's no single source of truth!
wcummings 12y ago
If you have a healthy thyroid, raw kale is fine. Similarly, if you have healthy kidneys the amount of oxalates in raw kale or spinach shouldn't be a problem. So tired of hearing this nonsense from people who read a few blog posts instead of asking their doctor.
- kolev 12y ago
  Hmmm... I think "healthy" is very relative and Google is planning to put all its powers to determine exactly what that means. How about not relying on something so subjective and just do a little extra effort to cook the problematic foods?
  - wcummings 12y ago
    Even calling them "problematic" is hugely exaggerating the risks, getting an iodine deficiency from eating too much kale would be an exceptional case (iodine deficiency is a rare condition to begin with). I've discussed this with my physician, they said it was nothing to worry about if you're healthy. Healthy meaning "doesn't have kidney disease." Not very subjective.
    - kolev 12y ago
      You probably wanted to say "doesn't have a diagnosed kidney disease." If you think you can fully diagnose kidney health just by lack of symptoms and basic blood and urine tests, you're wrong. No physician will do, for example, an ultrasound without symptoms - this is how the flawed system works. Iodine deficiency actually is common in many geographies and, if I remember correctly, it's became more common with the vilification of salt as iodized salt is the main source of iodine for many.
      - wcummings 12y ago
        Are you suggesting its prudent to assume you have kidney disease? If so, you'll want to avoid a whole lot more than just kale. Not sure why you're suggesting thats a flawed system, the vast majority of people don't have kidney disease. Are you suggesting we should subject people with no risk factors or symptoms to expensive tests for every disease, no matter how uncommon? The suggestion is that raw kale, spinach etc. would reliably cause iodine deficiency, which just isn't the case. If someone is eating a diet w/ adequate iodine, some raw veggies are not going cause any problems.
kolev 12y ago
I guess there are way too many kale sippers here as downvotes are piling up! Like the karma here will pay my bills. I guess the kale makes you aggressively vindictive. No, I don't have a PubMed article for that causation/correlation.
- meepmorp 12y ago
  > I guess there are way too many kale sippers here as downvotes are piling up! Maybe people just think you're a jackass.
  - kolev 12y ago
    Not really the reason to do the effort. People are offended that somebody is questioning their nectar... of hypothyroidism!
freehunter 12y ago
I eat raw broccoli and raw spinach even together in a salad. I can even go to the store and find raw spinach prepackaged in salads, claiming they are ready to eat.
- prawn 12y ago
  Raw mushrooms are pretty common in salads too.
- benatkin 12y ago
  Spinach is a different species.
  - freehunter 12y ago
    Yes, but the person I replied to raised the alarm about spinach being toxic.
darklajid 12y ago
(Oh man, it was weird to look up "kale". Google translate seems to offer lots of suggestions that aren't exactly edible) I eat mushrooms raw, quite a lot. You seem to think that this is a bad idea, but.. I wouldn't know why (and would certainly have a hard time believing that this is Not Good). It might help to present a bit of a disclaimer/"this is.where I'm coming from" statement in your post, before you start?
- maxerickson 12y ago
  It depends on the species. I believe most store mushrooms are fine, but for example, raw morels have monomethylhydrazine in them (or compounds that degrade into hydrazine). Rocket fuel. Of course not huge amounts, but it's not good for you. False morels have higher concentrations of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta

by kolev 12y ago

gohrt 12y ago

Source? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen makes the same claims, but has a long list of indicted veggies, with notably missing/broken sources. raw mushrooms and raw spinach are certainly popular...

ejstronge 12y ago

I just looked this up in the PubMed biomedical literature database and there aren't many studies that correlate the goitrogenic activity of cabbages, et al., to human thyroid activity. What's the impact of having kale juice once a day for a year? What if we simply consume extra iodine? Send links to papers if you have any primary references.

kolev 12y ago
Well, a 16 oz bottle of juiced kale is a lot of kale! I've seen people having 2-3 of those a day. It's not precise science to know how much extra iodine to consume, I think. Raw kale is known for ages to make livestock sick. Either Dr. Fuhrman or Dr. Weil recommended that the best way to take full advantage of kale is to blend it, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then put it in a soup or another cooked meal.
- rosser 12y ago
  Going by the argument that kale makes livestock sick, humans should never consume garlic, or chocolate, because they're poisonous to dogs and cats. Different animals have different metabolisms.
  - kolev 12y ago
    Not that this is a PubMed article (which the crowd here takes as the only truth), but it's an interesting read nonetheless: http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale-habit-slowly-destroying-your-health-and-world http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale... Edit: Sorry, I liked to the wrong article! Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't eat kale - just that it's not justified or even scientifically correct to eat it raw! Here's the article I wanted to link to: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-kale-and-how-to-eat-around-it http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-kale-a...
    - obastani 12y ago
      Did you read that article fully? It's a satire (see the last section)...
    - jessaustin 12y ago
      Did you actually read that article? Especially the last section, which contains this actually good advice: But when you see an article that demonizes a food, think about whether or not there are citations and follow those citations. Ask yourself whether they apply to human beings eating a diverse diet with adequete [sic] calories. Or whether they involve very high concentrations no human being eats, isolated chemicals, or preparations that no normal human would put on their plate. EDIT: Now that you've added an article, I recommend you read the first as preparation for reading the second with an appropriately critical mind.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      Your new article links this article: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/thyroid-doc-kale-problems-theoretical-but-in-reality-very-low-to-minuscule http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/thyroid-doc-kale-proble... The endocrinologist answering questions says Basically the goitrogens are challenges to the thyroid. But in the absence of iodine deficiency, substantial or prolonged ingestion of dietary goitrogens and lastly the absence of an underlying thyroid disorder, the risk in this country of having problems in this area are very, very low, almost minuscule. Again, that’s because the vast majority of people have adequate iodine levels to counteract the effect of goitrogens. So modest consumption doesn't seem like it is going to bother healthy people any.
- adrr 12y ago
  Doesn't this apply to everything? Anything consumed in excess will probably have negative effects. A balanced diet being the most optimal.
  - kolev 12y ago
    "Balanced" according to which methodology? To that vilifying saturated fats, for example, or the new that does the opposite, for example? When it comes to nutrition, there's no single source of truth!

wcummings 12y ago

If you have a healthy thyroid, raw kale is fine. Similarly, if you have healthy kidneys the amount of oxalates in raw kale or spinach shouldn't be a problem. So tired of hearing this nonsense from people who read a few blog posts instead of asking their doctor.

kolev 12y ago
Hmmm... I think "healthy" is very relative and Google is planning to put all its powers to determine exactly what that means. How about not relying on something so subjective and just do a little extra effort to cook the problematic foods?
- wcummings 12y ago
  Even calling them "problematic" is hugely exaggerating the risks, getting an iodine deficiency from eating too much kale would be an exceptional case (iodine deficiency is a rare condition to begin with). I've discussed this with my physician, they said it was nothing to worry about if you're healthy. Healthy meaning "doesn't have kidney disease." Not very subjective.
  - kolev 12y ago
    You probably wanted to say "doesn't have a diagnosed kidney disease." If you think you can fully diagnose kidney health just by lack of symptoms and basic blood and urine tests, you're wrong. No physician will do, for example, an ultrasound without symptoms - this is how the flawed system works. Iodine deficiency actually is common in many geographies and, if I remember correctly, it's became more common with the vilification of salt as iodized salt is the main source of iodine for many.
    - wcummings 12y ago
      Are you suggesting its prudent to assume you have kidney disease? If so, you'll want to avoid a whole lot more than just kale. Not sure why you're suggesting thats a flawed system, the vast majority of people don't have kidney disease. Are you suggesting we should subject people with no risk factors or symptoms to expensive tests for every disease, no matter how uncommon? The suggestion is that raw kale, spinach etc. would reliably cause iodine deficiency, which just isn't the case. If someone is eating a diet w/ adequate iodine, some raw veggies are not going cause any problems.

kolev 12y ago

I guess there are way too many kale sippers here as downvotes are piling up! Like the karma here will pay my bills. I guess the kale makes you aggressively vindictive. No, I don't have a PubMed article for that causation/correlation.

meepmorp 12y ago
> I guess there are way too many kale sippers here as downvotes are piling up! Maybe people just think you're a jackass.
- kolev 12y ago
  Not really the reason to do the effort. People are offended that somebody is questioning their nectar... of hypothyroidism!

freehunter 12y ago

I eat raw broccoli and raw spinach even together in a salad. I can even go to the store and find raw spinach prepackaged in salads, claiming they are ready to eat.

prawn 12y ago
Raw mushrooms are pretty common in salads too.
benatkin 12y ago
Spinach is a different species.
- freehunter 12y ago
  Yes, but the person I replied to raised the alarm about spinach being toxic.

darklajid 12y ago

(Oh man, it was weird to look up "kale". Google translate seems to offer lots of suggestions that aren't exactly edible) I eat mushrooms raw, quite a lot. You seem to think that this is a bad idea, but.. I wouldn't know why (and would certainly have a hard time believing that this is Not Good). It might help to present a bit of a disclaimer/"this is.where I'm coming from" statement in your post, before you start?

maxerickson 12y ago
It depends on the species. I believe most store mushrooms are fine, but for example, raw morels have monomethylhydrazine in them (or compounds that degrade into hydrazine). Rocket fuel. Of course not huge amounts, but it's not good for you. False morels have higher concentrations of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta