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"Except that the monkey has no concept of creative licensing, payments, royalties, etc." That doesn't matter. Plenty of grown adults have no concept of creativ

"Except that the monkey has no concept of creative licensing, payments, royalties, etc." That doesn't matter. Plenty of grown adults have no concept of creative licensing, payments, royalties, etc., and might never be in a position to understand them. Similarly, the 9 year old child is the creator and owner of his work at the time of its creation, regardless of the expectation that he'll eventually learn what the legalities of that creation mean. A mentally disabled or permanently incapacitated individual who is incapable of understanding copyright, and presumably never will be capable, is still entitled to copyright protections. What this really boils down to is the monkey's personhood. A person can legally create and own intellectual property, regardless of his cognizance of it. If we believe a macaque is in some ways a person -- not a human, but a person -- then this argument holds some merit. If we do not, then it becomes more tenuous. The question isn't whether the monkey understands the ramifications of her photo; it's whether the monkey had creative agency in taking the photo.

wlesieutre 12y ago
Is it only a question of whether the monkey had creative agency in taking the photo? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems possible to say that neither the human nor monkey did. If there were no monkey involved and the picture were taken on my camera by pure chance, can I still claim copyright on it as a photographer? Say I set the camera down, walk away, and a bug in the firmware causes it to start shooting pictures. Or maybe a rock falls from a nearby cliff and just happens to bounce off the shutter button. Is there a precedent for copyright in those instances?
- huherto 12y ago
  I think the human was hoping for a good shot when he let the Monkey play with it.
brk 12y ago
We are talking about aspects of a human-created and arbitrated legal system. All these rules and such are essentially designed to revolve around how we treat and compensate each other. Monkeys have no concept or participation in this legal system in the same way you wouldn't find two dogs arguing about how to handle a human sniffing their asses and who is the "dominant" one in that case. We as a society have decided to give certain protections and recognitions to humans who are too young and/or too mentally disabled to participate in this system at the "full" level. Presumably we have decided this because we choose to recognize all humans as equal and applicable to receive a certain level of inalienable rights. Most of our laws that relate to non-humans (animals) treat them as a form of property or otherwise seem to indicate we have no explicit desire to grant them the same rights and protections as actual humans. This could change with legal precedent, but the general consensus (IMO) is not on the side of wikipedias arbitrary ruling.
- jonnathanson 12y ago
  I agree with you that Wikipedia's decision is arbitrary, self-serving, and more than a little silly. But it raises interesting questions about the personhood of animals with higher intelligence. I don't think we could be having this conversation, for instance, if a cat took the photo. And yes, all of our laws are human constructs. The question is whether we start including human-like animals under the protections and rubric of some of those laws. I don't necessarily have an answer, but I do think it's a fun intellectual challenge. [EDIT: It's worth noting that Wikipedia's actual claim isn't so much that the monkey "owns" the photo. It's that the photographer doesn't. In other words, Wikipedia is claiming that, in de facto terms, nobody owns the photo. The monkey is its creator, but because a monkey is not entitled to legal authorship, the photo is public domain.]
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  What is interesting is asking our court system to consider this question. Small children have as much concept of the legal system as this monkey, yet are still afforded its benefit and if you look at our legal history this was achieved by adults demanding this.

wlesieutre 12y ago

Is it only a question of whether the monkey had creative agency in taking the photo? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems possible to say that neither the human nor monkey did. If there were no monkey involved and the picture were taken on my camera by pure chance, can I still claim copyright on it as a photographer? Say I set the camera down, walk away, and a bug in the firmware causes it to start shooting pictures. Or maybe a rock falls from a nearby cliff and just happens to bounce off the shutter button. Is there a precedent for copyright in those instances?

huherto 12y ago
I think the human was hoping for a good shot when he let the Monkey play with it.

brk 12y ago

We are talking about aspects of a human-created and arbitrated legal system. All these rules and such are essentially designed to revolve around how we treat and compensate each other. Monkeys have no concept or participation in this legal system in the same way you wouldn't find two dogs arguing about how to handle a human sniffing their asses and who is the "dominant" one in that case. We as a society have decided to give certain protections and recognitions to humans who are too young and/or too mentally disabled to participate in this system at the "full" level. Presumably we have decided this because we choose to recognize all humans as equal and applicable to receive a certain level of inalienable rights. Most of our laws that relate to non-humans (animals) treat them as a form of property or otherwise seem to indicate we have no explicit desire to grant them the same rights and protections as actual humans. This could change with legal precedent, but the general consensus (IMO) is not on the side of wikipedias arbitrary ruling.

jonnathanson 12y ago
I agree with you that Wikipedia's decision is arbitrary, self-serving, and more than a little silly. But it raises interesting questions about the personhood of animals with higher intelligence. I don't think we could be having this conversation, for instance, if a cat took the photo. And yes, all of our laws are human constructs. The question is whether we start including human-like animals under the protections and rubric of some of those laws. I don't necessarily have an answer, but I do think it's a fun intellectual challenge. [EDIT: It's worth noting that Wikipedia's actual claim isn't so much that the monkey "owns" the photo. It's that the photographer doesn't. In other words, Wikipedia is claiming that, in de facto terms, nobody owns the photo. The monkey is its creator, but because a monkey is not entitled to legal authorship, the photo is public domain.]
lotsofmangos 12y ago
What is interesting is asking our court system to consider this question. Small children have as much concept of the legal system as this monkey, yet are still afforded its benefit and if you look at our legal history this was achieved by adults demanding this.