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I mean, if you care more about not arguing with your relatives than you do that the CIA abducted and tortured people, then you have little incentive to engage w

I mean, if you care more about not arguing with your relatives than you do that the CIA abducted and tortured people, then you have little incentive to engage with the wider political process. Of course, most people think that the US government abducting foreign nationals and torturing them at black sites is a considerably bigger problem than their mother-in-law being grumpy at them for a couple days, and want to do something about it.

pitt1980 12y ago
how do my in-laws being grumpy help foreign nationals tortured by the CIA? how has that made the world a better place? other than now I feel vaguely superior to my in-laws "who just don't get it"
- NotAtWork 12y ago
  If one person in every family made their in-laws grumpy about the CIA torture scandal, then the entire nation would (at least once, over the course of months/a year) have an actual discussion about the situation. That discussion then goes on to inform their views on various topics, including who they should vote for in the next election. Government officials, at the end of the day, are chosen because the circles get filled in on ballots, and the circles get filled in from a choice made on the aggregate of our experiences, including discussions with friends and family. The difference is that if we talk about it, even if it makes people uncomfortable, then the nation discusses these issues and takes them in to account when voting. If we don't, then the nation doesn't. The rate at which pissed off people bother their family members about what they're pissed off about directly influences the course of national politics, even if the particular result of any particular discussion is some pissed off in-laws and a small percentage chance a bubble gets filled out differently in a few months.
  - pitt1980 12y ago
    but I can't make one person in every other family talk to their in laws about CIA torture I can only affect my small corner of the universe how would the world be different if 1 person in every family told their in laws that they appreciated them as human beings maybe that would change the world more, maybe there would be less pent up fustration and anger for Fox News (or whatever political bogeyman you ascribe to) tap into and frame with a political lense
  - aestra 12y ago
    > If one person in every family made their in-laws grumpy about the CIA torture scandal, then the entire nation would (at least once, over the course of months/a year) have an actual discussion about the situation. That discussion then goes on to inform their views on various topics, including who they should vote for in the next election. Only in fantasy land. The problem? Nobody ever actually has a rational discussion or becomes informed about anything. Just shouting matches and insults get thrown around, nothing ever gets accomplished. Everyone now hates each other. You aren't going to change someone's deeply held beliefs even if those beliefs are based on complete and total lies. The backfire effect. http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking. The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger. http://www.skepdic.com/backfireeffect.html http://www.skepdic.com/backfireeffect.html
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    > If one person in every family made their in-laws grumpy about the CIA torture scandal, then the entire nation would (at least once, over the course of months/a year) have an actual discussion about the situation. That discussion then goes on to inform their views on various topics, including who they should vote for in the next election. No, no, no, no, no. Things don't work like that. Even ignoring the backfire effect another commenter mentioned, you have this huge campaigns, PR and media machine optimized for politicians to make people have discussions politicians want. Media are actually mind-controlling nations and the funny thing is, people will tell you that they know it, and yet they act as if they weren't aware.

pitt1980 12y ago

how do my in-laws being grumpy help foreign nationals tortured by the CIA? how has that made the world a better place? other than now I feel vaguely superior to my in-laws "who just don't get it"

NotAtWork 12y ago
If one person in every family made their in-laws grumpy about the CIA torture scandal, then the entire nation would (at least once, over the course of months/a year) have an actual discussion about the situation. That discussion then goes on to inform their views on various topics, including who they should vote for in the next election. Government officials, at the end of the day, are chosen because the circles get filled in on ballots, and the circles get filled in from a choice made on the aggregate of our experiences, including discussions with friends and family. The difference is that if we talk about it, even if it makes people uncomfortable, then the nation discusses these issues and takes them in to account when voting. If we don't, then the nation doesn't. The rate at which pissed off people bother their family members about what they're pissed off about directly influences the course of national politics, even if the particular result of any particular discussion is some pissed off in-laws and a small percentage chance a bubble gets filled out differently in a few months.
- pitt1980 12y ago
  but I can't make one person in every other family talk to their in laws about CIA torture I can only affect my small corner of the universe how would the world be different if 1 person in every family told their in laws that they appreciated them as human beings maybe that would change the world more, maybe there would be less pent up fustration and anger for Fox News (or whatever political bogeyman you ascribe to) tap into and frame with a political lense
- aestra 12y ago
  > If one person in every family made their in-laws grumpy about the CIA torture scandal, then the entire nation would (at least once, over the course of months/a year) have an actual discussion about the situation. That discussion then goes on to inform their views on various topics, including who they should vote for in the next election. Only in fantasy land. The problem? Nobody ever actually has a rational discussion or becomes informed about anything. Just shouting matches and insults get thrown around, nothing ever gets accomplished. Everyone now hates each other. You aren't going to change someone's deeply held beliefs even if those beliefs are based on complete and total lies. The backfire effect. http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking. The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger. http://www.skepdic.com/backfireeffect.html http://www.skepdic.com/backfireeffect.html
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > If one person in every family made their in-laws grumpy about the CIA torture scandal, then the entire nation would (at least once, over the course of months/a year) have an actual discussion about the situation. That discussion then goes on to inform their views on various topics, including who they should vote for in the next election. No, no, no, no, no. Things don't work like that. Even ignoring the backfire effect another commenter mentioned, you have this huge campaigns, PR and media machine optimized for politicians to make people have discussions politicians want. Media are actually mind-controlling nations and the funny thing is, people will tell you that they know it, and yet they act as if they weren't aware.