5 ms·

They've sacrificed their core of users who supplied all of the checkins and tips in order to try to kill Yelp. Problem was, only those loyal users were ever con

by acquiHire2014 12y ago

They've sacrificed their core of users who supplied all of the checkins and tips in order to try to kill Yelp. Problem was, only those loyal users were ever convinced that they were better than yelp. Now that they've chosen the foursquare name, which is synonymous with checkins, for their Yelp clone, it seems like they haven't thought out... 1. If the checkin users leave because Swarm is stupid and eliminates everything fun (mayorships, badges, reading all the tips without going to another app, seeing who else is checked in besides your friends), who is going to keep supplying them with behavioral data? Not casual users, who won't open the app and show their location at all until they're looking for a recommendations. In terms of data, casual users are takers, while the check-in users are givers. 2. Foursquare super users (their community of people who applied for edit privileges on the venue data) are probably all avid check-in users. Without them, junk venues and spam may overwhelm. 3. How do they really expect to attract enough users who want to use the new foursquare now that the app is a completely different thing? What's their differentiator from Yelp? To me it just seems like it's Yelp but with shorter reviews. Everyone who didn't use foursquare before because they hated check-ins isn't going to even know they killed check-ins and will still stay away. I think this whole plan might have had a chance if they'd left foursquare alone as their data generator, and launched a new app with a new name for their Yelp clone. At least then they'd have a new chance to introduce themselves and try to attract the mass audience they're going for.

ToastyMallows 12y ago
I completely agree with all points. I used to check-in every time I went somewhere, but now without the mayorship, badges, etc., I don't do anything anymore. I actually haven't opened Foursquare in about a week now. Not sure why they were so excited about losing functionality and fragmenting their user base.
- nevi-me 12y ago
  Also agree, for me the mayorships are what kept me checking in to my regular places, I kinda feel like the Swarm split killed Foursquare. Their loss I guess.
  - misiti3780 12y ago
    why do you care about being the mayor? was there some benefit beyond the foursquare status I am not aware of ?
    - cenhyperion 12y ago
      It was a fun game. If I really like a certain cafe and go there almost every day it was fun to have some way to show and compete for that. The benefit was a good UX.
    - ojbyrne 12y ago
      Occasionally venues would have special perks for the mayor.
    - tedks 12y ago
      Ridiculously type-A people can't see a game without wanting to win it. That's at least what got me on foursquare. Really sad to see points go. Every time I traveled I'd try to top my high score and I really think it helped.
- zeitg3ist 12y ago
  The latest updates to Swarm reintroduced a few of the original gamification concepts, most notably an unlockable "mayor" sticker. Give it a try.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
untog 12y ago
Yelp but with shorter reviews That's actually something I really want. I'm sick of reading "My fiancee and I were walking down Main St, browsing restaurants, when we happened to notice <restaurant name>. She likes fish, so we were looking for fish dishes..." As for the rest of it - you're likely right. But the old Foursquare wasn't generating money. So either you abandon your hardcore users by shutting down, or you attempt to move them to a new service that has a better business model.
- TarpitCarnivore 12y ago
  My biggest complaint about Yelp is the same as yours, nearly everyone is a "foodie" and trying to write reviews like they're part of the New York Times.
  - mbesto 12y ago
    The beauty of Yelp is that you don't have to read them! The power is in the fact that reviews are aggregated ("..and the fish is amazing!") and that you can search within them. Sometimes I wanna search "oysters" to see if their oysters are any good. Let's say out of 100 reviews one mentions oysters - at least now I have an idea what to expect about oysters, whereas in Foursquare this may not have even been documented due to the char limit.
    - abakker 12y ago
      Except that that aggregated data frequently aggregate useless info into a very reductive score. If I go to a $ restaurant, I don't value a poor review which bases itself on poor service. If I'm paying $10 a plate, I can handle almost any level of service if the food is good. It's a sliding scale though, at $$$$ I would rate the service related review more highly. I would LOVE if yelp let people rate reviews, as well as restaurants. Useful reviews deserver more weight than ones that say, "I hated it, and didn't leave a tip because the waiter was ..."
      - TarpitCarnivore 12y ago
doff 12y ago
Agreed. I've been a super user for years, and I was happy to give foursquare all of my data because they did two great things with it: 1) they gave it back to me so I had an accessible record of my check-ins which is very helpful if you travel frequently, and very lovely if, like me, your personality combines deep nostalgia with shocking forgetfulness. It also made Timehop worth opening. 2) they used it in seemingly intelligent ways to give me surprisingly good recommendations when I needed them, and showed me where friends had checked in, even if they hadn't left tips. A check-in from a friend can be a tiny endorsement of its own in absence of anything else. Both of those benefits are what keep me checking in. Which is what keeps me using the app. I fully recognize that there isn't enough of me to support foursquare. I get that. But I'm still sad to see it go.
- caniszczyk 12y ago
  Honestly, I used the app the same way you did... I'm a bit dismayed with the new direction. It seems like they could have still left the checkin feature but made it less prominent (I still would have been happy as a super user)
kin 12y ago
Exactly! The transition was also handled poorly. How annoying was it to have an unfamiliar Swarm pop-up anytime you wanted to check-in on Foursquare? How annoying is it that all your badges are gone? These new stickers seem cool, how do I earn them? I mean, I love the new spontaneous event planning feature, sure. But really, all Swarm did was add a tab and some stickers. I honestly feel as if a simple redesign including those two features would have sufficed. Instead, they made a huge gamble based on data and didn't really think about how the current users would adapt.
_mikz 12y ago
I've stopped using 4sq when they forced to check in through Swarm. Swarm was constantly monitoring me and eating the battery. At least in Foursquare app you could turn of the 'Radar'. Good bye 4sq.
- pavel_lishin 12y ago
  You can turn off the tracking in Swarm as well.
- schrodinger 12y ago
  FYI you can go into iOS preferences -> General -> Background App Refresh and turn off apps that you don't want to run in the background. I've done that with Swarm with no problems, and you can do it with other apps too (Facebook?)
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Eating the battery you say? Ok, this is enough. I just uninstalled both apps. I don't need stuff I don't use competing with Ingress over power. sigh
mathattack 12y ago
I recall seeing a data presentation on 4square a few months ago, and the numbers suggested that check-ins were tapering. They definitely realized that all their corporate value was in the data. Perhaps they are trying to avoid the split issues from Netflix? I think they needed to give the Foursquare name to the Yelp-killer so that people would know about it. The space is too crowded to start from scratch. And Yelp is ready to be killed.
- uptown 12y ago
  "And Yelp is ready to be killed." Why? Is that your personal sentiment on their company, or are you suggesting their business isn't successful? Who's their biggest competitor? They killed Citysearch, and Sheckys, and all the other websites that used to dominate that space, but I can't think of another company that comes close to their brand awareness apart from Google, who probably won't dominate since it's not their primary function.
  - gagaga 12y ago
    Yelp's ratings, reviews, recommendations, and tips aren't very good for food, bars, and things to do. I've always found Foursquare's to be much higher quality.
    - jmathai 12y ago
      I think the parent was suggesting that Yelp is good enough. When you have a brand as recognizable as Yelp and viewed as "good enough" then it becomes nearly impossible for a competitor to beat them by simply being better. You have to be different and I'm not sure what needs to be different about Yelp.
  - mathattack 12y ago
    Two issues with Yelp: 1 - The recommendations are not personalized. We are getting more and more accustomed to personalization. I love FreshDirect, but I don't trust their anonymous ratings either. Same with SeamlessWeb. 2 - The Yelp reviews are frequently gimmicked by advertisers.
schainan 12y ago
I work for Foursquare; here's my answer to #3: It's not just that tips are shorter than reviews, though that's part of it. The issue with Yelp is that every single user gets the same recommendations if they search at the same place and time. And in a world where everything is becoming more personalized, it's crazy that the predominant app in the local search category does nothing to tailor its results to you. When you sign up for the new Foursquare, it asks you for your tastes so that every time you search, every time you open the app, it will be tailored for the things you like. It's like Amazon recommended products vs the experience you get on non-smart ecommerce platforms. It's smarter at a fundamental level; the things we are doing with our data are really smart and unprecedented in this space. That's why I'm confident we have a differentiated product in this new app, and I hope you try it out and see what I mean. Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in. So I don't think there's much to worry about with regards to our data getting stale and losing quality.
- GuiA 12y ago
  > 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in. That's an incredibly high number, so I'm guessing it doesn't mean "all users ever", but rather "all users who check in at least once a day"?
  - snoman 12y ago
    Consider that the 10% must also include Windows Phone users (as there is no Swarm app in WP). 'checkin users' probably means something like "active daily users on platforms where we have released swarm" and 'moved over to Swarm' means something like "has at least 1 checkin using Swarm". This is what I like to call "counting for marketing professionals".
- ulfw 12y ago
  > 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm Really? I find that extremely hard to believe that 90% of users would download a second app. That would be a super huge success if true. Or how do you define 'checkin user'? Someone who checks in every day? At least once a week? etc

ToastyMallows 12y ago

I completely agree with all points. I used to check-in every time I went somewhere, but now without the mayorship, badges, etc., I don't do anything anymore. I actually haven't opened Foursquare in about a week now. Not sure why they were so excited about losing functionality and fragmenting their user base.

nevi-me 12y ago
Also agree, for me the mayorships are what kept me checking in to my regular places, I kinda feel like the Swarm split killed Foursquare. Their loss I guess.
- misiti3780 12y ago
  why do you care about being the mayor? was there some benefit beyond the foursquare status I am not aware of ?
  - cenhyperion 12y ago
    It was a fun game. If I really like a certain cafe and go there almost every day it was fun to have some way to show and compete for that. The benefit was a good UX.
  - ojbyrne 12y ago
    Occasionally venues would have special perks for the mayor.
  - tedks 12y ago
    Ridiculously type-A people can't see a game without wanting to win it. That's at least what got me on foursquare. Really sad to see points go. Every time I traveled I'd try to top my high score and I really think it helped.
zeitg3ist 12y ago
The latest updates to Swarm reintroduced a few of the original gamification concepts, most notably an unlockable "mayor" sticker. Give it a try.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

untog 12y ago

Yelp but with shorter reviews That's actually something I really want. I'm sick of reading "My fiancee and I were walking down Main St, browsing restaurants, when we happened to notice <restaurant name>. She likes fish, so we were looking for fish dishes..." As for the rest of it - you're likely right. But the old Foursquare wasn't generating money. So either you abandon your hardcore users by shutting down, or you attempt to move them to a new service that has a better business model.

TarpitCarnivore 12y ago
My biggest complaint about Yelp is the same as yours, nearly everyone is a "foodie" and trying to write reviews like they're part of the New York Times.
- mbesto 12y ago
  The beauty of Yelp is that you don't have to read them! The power is in the fact that reviews are aggregated ("..and the fish is amazing!") and that you can search within them. Sometimes I wanna search "oysters" to see if their oysters are any good. Let's say out of 100 reviews one mentions oysters - at least now I have an idea what to expect about oysters, whereas in Foursquare this may not have even been documented due to the char limit.
  - abakker 12y ago
    Except that that aggregated data frequently aggregate useless info into a very reductive score. If I go to a $ restaurant, I don't value a poor review which bases itself on poor service. If I'm paying $10 a plate, I can handle almost any level of service if the food is good. It's a sliding scale though, at $$$$ I would rate the service related review more highly. I would LOVE if yelp let people rate reviews, as well as restaurants. Useful reviews deserver more weight than ones that say, "I hated it, and didn't leave a tip because the waiter was ..."
    - TarpitCarnivore 12y ago

doff 12y ago

Agreed. I've been a super user for years, and I was happy to give foursquare all of my data because they did two great things with it: 1) they gave it back to me so I had an accessible record of my check-ins which is very helpful if you travel frequently, and very lovely if, like me, your personality combines deep nostalgia with shocking forgetfulness. It also made Timehop worth opening. 2) they used it in seemingly intelligent ways to give me surprisingly good recommendations when I needed them, and showed me where friends had checked in, even if they hadn't left tips. A check-in from a friend can be a tiny endorsement of its own in absence of anything else. Both of those benefits are what keep me checking in. Which is what keeps me using the app. I fully recognize that there isn't enough of me to support foursquare. I get that. But I'm still sad to see it go.

caniszczyk 12y ago
Honestly, I used the app the same way you did... I'm a bit dismayed with the new direction. It seems like they could have still left the checkin feature but made it less prominent (I still would have been happy as a super user)

kin 12y ago

Exactly! The transition was also handled poorly. How annoying was it to have an unfamiliar Swarm pop-up anytime you wanted to check-in on Foursquare? How annoying is it that all your badges are gone? These new stickers seem cool, how do I earn them? I mean, I love the new spontaneous event planning feature, sure. But really, all Swarm did was add a tab and some stickers. I honestly feel as if a simple redesign including those two features would have sufficed. Instead, they made a huge gamble based on data and didn't really think about how the current users would adapt.

_mikz 12y ago

I've stopped using 4sq when they forced to check in through Swarm. Swarm was constantly monitoring me and eating the battery. At least in Foursquare app you could turn of the 'Radar'. Good bye 4sq.

pavel_lishin 12y ago
You can turn off the tracking in Swarm as well.
schrodinger 12y ago
FYI you can go into iOS preferences -> General -> Background App Refresh and turn off apps that you don't want to run in the background. I've done that with Swarm with no problems, and you can do it with other apps too (Facebook?)
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Eating the battery you say? Ok, this is enough. I just uninstalled both apps. I don't need stuff I don't use competing with Ingress over power. sigh

mathattack 12y ago

I recall seeing a data presentation on 4square a few months ago, and the numbers suggested that check-ins were tapering. They definitely realized that all their corporate value was in the data. Perhaps they are trying to avoid the split issues from Netflix? I think they needed to give the Foursquare name to the Yelp-killer so that people would know about it. The space is too crowded to start from scratch. And Yelp is ready to be killed.

uptown 12y ago
"And Yelp is ready to be killed." Why? Is that your personal sentiment on their company, or are you suggesting their business isn't successful? Who's their biggest competitor? They killed Citysearch, and Sheckys, and all the other websites that used to dominate that space, but I can't think of another company that comes close to their brand awareness apart from Google, who probably won't dominate since it's not their primary function.
- gagaga 12y ago
  Yelp's ratings, reviews, recommendations, and tips aren't very good for food, bars, and things to do. I've always found Foursquare's to be much higher quality.
  - jmathai 12y ago
    I think the parent was suggesting that Yelp is good enough. When you have a brand as recognizable as Yelp and viewed as "good enough" then it becomes nearly impossible for a competitor to beat them by simply being better. You have to be different and I'm not sure what needs to be different about Yelp.
- mathattack 12y ago
  Two issues with Yelp: 1 - The recommendations are not personalized. We are getting more and more accustomed to personalization. I love FreshDirect, but I don't trust their anonymous ratings either. Same with SeamlessWeb. 2 - The Yelp reviews are frequently gimmicked by advertisers.

schainan 12y ago

I work for Foursquare; here's my answer to #3: It's not just that tips are shorter than reviews, though that's part of it. The issue with Yelp is that every single user gets the same recommendations if they search at the same place and time. And in a world where everything is becoming more personalized, it's crazy that the predominant app in the local search category does nothing to tailor its results to you. When you sign up for the new Foursquare, it asks you for your tastes so that every time you search, every time you open the app, it will be tailored for the things you like. It's like Amazon recommended products vs the experience you get on non-smart ecommerce platforms. It's smarter at a fundamental level; the things we are doing with our data are really smart and unprecedented in this space. That's why I'm confident we have a differentiated product in this new app, and I hope you try it out and see what I mean. Furthermore, we still have tons of check-in data - 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in. So I don't think there's much to worry about with regards to our data getting stale and losing quality.

GuiA 12y ago
> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm and continue to check in. That's an incredibly high number, so I'm guessing it doesn't mean "all users ever", but rather "all users who check in at least once a day"?
- snoman 12y ago
  Consider that the 10% must also include Windows Phone users (as there is no Swarm app in WP). 'checkin users' probably means something like "active daily users on platforms where we have released swarm" and 'moved over to Swarm' means something like "has at least 1 checkin using Swarm". This is what I like to call "counting for marketing professionals".
ulfw 12y ago
> 90% of our checkin users have moved over to Swarm Really? I find that extremely hard to believe that 90% of users would download a second app. That would be a super huge success if true. Or how do you define 'checkin user'? Someone who checks in every day? At least once a week? etc