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There is one nonreligious factor that significantly differentiates humans from machines: that humans evolved, while machines were built by humans. There's an

by amalcon 17y ago

There is one nonreligious factor that significantly differentiates humans from machines: that humans evolved, while machines were built by humans. There's an argument to be made that humans cannot understand consciousness well enough to build it, because consciousness is our only tool for doing that. Of course, this only applies to intentional creation of consciousness. It says nothing about the distinct possibility that we could create a consciousness by accident.

viraptor 17y ago
But we know how to get the effects of evolution... on steroids: unsupervised, feedback/effect based learning (generic algorithms, NNs, etc.) We can already generate big enough NNs that we can understand them in general (some areas get "specialised" in some way and more active in some conditions), and we know that the result is what we expect - but there's no way someone will take a look at the weights / resulting model and tell you what it does. I think we can create consciousness intentionally, but not understanding the process completely.
- joubert 17y ago
  Evolution does not have a goal in mind.
  - netsp 17y ago
    That doesn't mean it can't be used to achieve a goal. Selectively breeding cows for increased milk production allows evolution to find a way or ways of making that happen. The breeder doesn't need to worry about hormones or glands. Evolution doesn't need to worry about the breeder's motives, why are only the high milk producers producing offspring?
  - rjurney 17y ago
    No, but it is driven by external pressures, which we could apply to artificial consciousness by hacking it :) Ok, artificial selection - but no reason we couldn't game it to be genetic.
thorax 17y ago
A computer-based consciousness would also be a result of evolution (albeit in a different way than things we know usually) being the byproduct of something that an evolved species created to help itself adapt. Sometimes, when I'm getting overlogical, I see machine intelligence as being pretty much our destiny (i.e. that singularity thing) and that organic life may be very much obsolete once it gets into its own. As organic life was to the universe before it, machine life will be to us.
- joubert 17y ago
  Evolution is not directed by a consciousness, so you cannot loosely use the term "evolution" to describe the DEVELOPMENT of computer-based consciousness. ADDED: but yes, extended phenotype and all that jazz.
  - billswift 17y ago
    Just because biological evolution was not directed by intelligence does NOT mean you can't use evolution to describe a process of gradual improvement based on intelligent improvements rather than random changes and natural selection. Both are evolution, just in different domains, using different methods. (Your complaint sounds sort of like saying reading on a computer shouldn't be called reading because there is no actual printing involved in producing it.)
StrawberryFrog 17y ago
humans evolved, while machines were built by humans. The design of machines evolves all the time.

by amalcon 17y ago

viraptor 17y ago

But we know how to get the effects of evolution... on steroids: unsupervised, feedback/effect based learning (generic algorithms, NNs, etc.) We can already generate big enough NNs that we can understand them in general (some areas get "specialised" in some way and more active in some conditions), and we know that the result is what we expect - but there's no way someone will take a look at the weights / resulting model and tell you what it does. I think we can create consciousness intentionally, but not understanding the process completely.

joubert 17y ago
Evolution does not have a goal in mind.
- netsp 17y ago
  That doesn't mean it can't be used to achieve a goal. Selectively breeding cows for increased milk production allows evolution to find a way or ways of making that happen. The breeder doesn't need to worry about hormones or glands. Evolution doesn't need to worry about the breeder's motives, why are only the high milk producers producing offspring?
- rjurney 17y ago
  No, but it is driven by external pressures, which we could apply to artificial consciousness by hacking it :) Ok, artificial selection - but no reason we couldn't game it to be genetic.

thorax 17y ago

A computer-based consciousness would also be a result of evolution (albeit in a different way than things we know usually) being the byproduct of something that an evolved species created to help itself adapt. Sometimes, when I'm getting overlogical, I see machine intelligence as being pretty much our destiny (i.e. that singularity thing) and that organic life may be very much obsolete once it gets into its own. As organic life was to the universe before it, machine life will be to us.

joubert 17y ago
Evolution is not directed by a consciousness, so you cannot loosely use the term "evolution" to describe the DEVELOPMENT of computer-based consciousness. ADDED: but yes, extended phenotype and all that jazz.
- billswift 17y ago
  Just because biological evolution was not directed by intelligence does NOT mean you can't use evolution to describe a process of gradual improvement based on intelligent improvements rather than random changes and natural selection. Both are evolution, just in different domains, using different methods. (Your complaint sounds sort of like saying reading on a computer shouldn't be called reading because there is no actual printing involved in producing it.)

StrawberryFrog 17y ago

humans evolved, while machines were built by humans. The design of machines evolves all the time.