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Reposting my review of Ethereum from Quora: Ethereum has been described by core developers as oil to Bitcoin's gold. it is similar to other metacoins in that i

by Jd 12y ago

Reposting my review of Ethereum from Quora: Ethereum has been described by core developers as oil to Bitcoin's gold. it is similar to other metacoins in that it acts as superlayer that empowers the blockchain, that is something like when Javascript was added onto HTML. It empowers an immense number of custom applications on top of the blockchain, for purposes as diverse as contracts, derivatives, custom currencies, and filesharing. As Robert Ver said recently in Miami, if it works it is at least as innovative as Bitcoin itself. Enthusiasm is high because, unlike Bitcoin, there is immediate use value for ether within the Ethereum network. All of the applications built in ethereum consume amounts of ether along with their computational cycles. For folks looking at things from a macroeconomic standpoint, this makes Ethereum perhaps the most interesting of the new cryptocurrencies, because among other things. there is immediate use value for ether outside of trading, mining, and the other standard features of the first generation of cryptocurrencies. Is it Bitcoin 2.0? Time will tell. http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Ethereum http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Ethereum

asdf333 12y ago
correct me if I'm wrong but the oil analogy breaks down when you look at the fact that there is nothing special about ethereum. it was conjured from thin air and can be conjured even more easily the second time. oil runs out and its not easy to make more. ethereum running out? no worries! just create a new currency ethereum2, issue 100billion and use the blockchain to power more apps. In fact you could just have several ethereum clones going at once.
- servowire 12y ago
  This does seem valid, in a way. But is the same not true about Bitcoin then? I'm confused.
  - conroe64 12y ago
    Many clones were made of bitcoin, but it has a large first mover advantage which keeps it on top. coinmarketcap.com has some interesting stats on the "altcoins"
  - granaldo 12y ago
    There are indeed many clones of Bitcoin. Look here at https://www.coingecko.com/ https://www.coingecko.com/ Those stats determine where most of the resources have been focused on. Each coins have their own agenda, goal, and different group of community backing it.
  - asdf333 12y ago
    i think its a bit different b/c ethereum is supposedly useful as the 'fuel that allows apps to utilize the concept of a blockchain' in apps. i suppose the idea is that it 'burns' ethereum to run an app on top of it, so I can see a scenario where ethereum becomes too expensive and businesses that use decide to move to a different fork that is less expensive. I guess the oil analogy works then -- it gets too expensive and alternatives are found. However, its just a matter of forking the codebase and starting another one...kind of like stellar did with ripple.
- facepalm 12y ago
  It was not conjured from thin air. A lot of people work on implementing it. It's true that something similar could be implemented any time (at a cost). However, the same can be said for Twitter or Facebook. The analogy to oil is not very useful, it seems.
  - b1db77d2 12y ago
    It takes no effort to change the name and clone it completely.
    - facepalm 12y ago
      True, but still the question remains which copy the public would adopt. But I also see it as a a problem that Ethereum presumably doesn't have a huge user base yet.
      - b1db77d2 12y ago
        Does it matter? Bitcoin has thousands of clones but they still manage to gain userbases. http://mapofcoins.com/ http://mapofcoins.com/
        facepalm 12y ago
        Do they? I think a lot of them fail, apparently there are also practical issues with attracting enough mining power to make them secure. Atm Bitcoin still seems the only safe bet for the long run.
        runeks 12y ago
        It's not about number of users, it's about liquidity for the money/currency in question (whether it be bitcoins, litecoins or "ethers"). Ie. how much will selling/buying a certain amount of the currency affect the market price. This is what defines money: high liquidity (market depth). Something cannot be money without this property. It might have the potential to become money, though. But without liquidity it is as much money as baseball cards and wine.
- nadaviv 12y ago
  By creating a separate network, you would lose interoperability with the original network, the security properties of having a large network with more mining hashpower and the network effects of the people already invested into and using the previous system.
xorcist 12y ago
Bitcoin already enables a lot of these applications, and of those that go beyond what's possible with Bitcoin none of the hard questions have been answered yet. These are questions about spam and denial of service. It is far from clear how these would be handled.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
vertex-four 12y ago
Exactly what applications can I use Ethereum for the moment that it releases? What independent scientific research are these applications based on, what trust models do they have, and how much can they affect the "real world"?
- joeyspn 12y ago
  You can take a look at Eris by ProjectDouglas, a framework for building your own Distributed Autonomous Organizations. They are also working on solutions for mirroring blockchain-based smart contracts with their counterparts in the offline legal system. https://github.com/project-douglas/eris https://github.com/project-douglas/eris
  - vertex-four 12y ago
    Unfortunately, that answers none of my questions. I'm looking for solid ideas of things that can be done, that are interesting to do, and have some form of real-world (i.e. not just blockchain-contained) interaction, either input or output. What is Ethereum useful for, solidly, that I cannot do today?
jcfrei 12y ago
Ok, so from watching a few video introductions to Ethereum, I gather that you can create almost anything from it. But limitless applications doesn't mean it's going to be used by everyone, right? I mean how often do we enter a contract (outside of purchases) in our lifetime? of what use are smart contracts and organizations if they are not accepted by your local jurisdiction? How much does a user care about an application that is using a decentralized blockchain to store encrypted information? For example; if he can get a slightly better service for free by google, with the only downside that his emails are checked for advertising keywords. It seems most people still put a huge premium on ease of use. the biggest application I see for Ethereum is using it akin to the SETI project, but with a reward built in. Does the Ethereum VM support advanced math? Ie. complex numbers, high precision values? if so, I see a real use case there, or maybe in the form of some online games. but I'm skeptical of the "grand vision" a this point.
- drcode 12y ago
  > I mean how often do we enter a contract (outside of purchases) in our lifetime? In every email you read, every website you visit, every purchase, some sort of social contract exists. > Does the Ethereum VM support advanced math? Ie. complex numbers, high precision values? No, ethereum will not be good at or used for any of those things (directly). > of what use are smart contracts and organizations if they are not accepted by your local jurisdiction? Ethereum contracts are PRECISELY for instances where they aren't accepted by local jurisdictions, that's what machine-based enforcement is all about. Bottom line, you're thinking of ethereum as a "faster horse" whereas the ethereum team is trying to build a car- The use for ethereum is that it opens up new possibilities that never existed before. (not that I'm saying it's certain to succeed at this goal.)
brighton36 12y ago
>unlike Bitcoin, there is immediate use value for ether within the Ethereum network. You've clearly not used Counterparty yet. Give it a try, it's easy, offers a great featureset, and works 'today'.
- Jd 12y ago
  Actually I'm the founder of Swarm (www.swarmcorp.com) which is built on Counterparty. Very familiar with the platform ;) (although original post on Quora was written pre-Swarm)

by Jd 12y ago

asdf333 12y ago

correct me if I'm wrong but the oil analogy breaks down when you look at the fact that there is nothing special about ethereum. it was conjured from thin air and can be conjured even more easily the second time. oil runs out and its not easy to make more. ethereum running out? no worries! just create a new currency ethereum2, issue 100billion and use the blockchain to power more apps. In fact you could just have several ethereum clones going at once.

servowire 12y ago
This does seem valid, in a way. But is the same not true about Bitcoin then? I'm confused.
- conroe64 12y ago
  Many clones were made of bitcoin, but it has a large first mover advantage which keeps it on top. coinmarketcap.com has some interesting stats on the "altcoins"
- granaldo 12y ago
  There are indeed many clones of Bitcoin. Look here at https://www.coingecko.com/ https://www.coingecko.com/ Those stats determine where most of the resources have been focused on. Each coins have their own agenda, goal, and different group of community backing it.
- asdf333 12y ago
  i think its a bit different b/c ethereum is supposedly useful as the 'fuel that allows apps to utilize the concept of a blockchain' in apps. i suppose the idea is that it 'burns' ethereum to run an app on top of it, so I can see a scenario where ethereum becomes too expensive and businesses that use decide to move to a different fork that is less expensive. I guess the oil analogy works then -- it gets too expensive and alternatives are found. However, its just a matter of forking the codebase and starting another one...kind of like stellar did with ripple.
facepalm 12y ago
It was not conjured from thin air. A lot of people work on implementing it. It's true that something similar could be implemented any time (at a cost). However, the same can be said for Twitter or Facebook. The analogy to oil is not very useful, it seems.
- b1db77d2 12y ago
  It takes no effort to change the name and clone it completely.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    True, but still the question remains which copy the public would adopt. But I also see it as a a problem that Ethereum presumably doesn't have a huge user base yet.
    - b1db77d2 12y ago
      Does it matter? Bitcoin has thousands of clones but they still manage to gain userbases. http://mapofcoins.com/ http://mapofcoins.com/
      - facepalm 12y ago
        Do they? I think a lot of them fail, apparently there are also practical issues with attracting enough mining power to make them secure. Atm Bitcoin still seems the only safe bet for the long run.
      - runeks 12y ago
        It's not about number of users, it's about liquidity for the money/currency in question (whether it be bitcoins, litecoins or "ethers"). Ie. how much will selling/buying a certain amount of the currency affect the market price. This is what defines money: high liquidity (market depth). Something cannot be money without this property. It might have the potential to become money, though. But without liquidity it is as much money as baseball cards and wine.
nadaviv 12y ago
By creating a separate network, you would lose interoperability with the original network, the security properties of having a large network with more mining hashpower and the network effects of the people already invested into and using the previous system.

xorcist 12y ago

Bitcoin already enables a lot of these applications, and of those that go beyond what's possible with Bitcoin none of the hard questions have been answered yet. These are questions about spam and denial of service. It is far from clear how these would be handled.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

vertex-four 12y ago

Exactly what applications can I use Ethereum for the moment that it releases? What independent scientific research are these applications based on, what trust models do they have, and how much can they affect the "real world"?

joeyspn 12y ago
You can take a look at Eris by ProjectDouglas, a framework for building your own Distributed Autonomous Organizations. They are also working on solutions for mirroring blockchain-based smart contracts with their counterparts in the offline legal system. https://github.com/project-douglas/eris https://github.com/project-douglas/eris
- vertex-four 12y ago
  Unfortunately, that answers none of my questions. I'm looking for solid ideas of things that can be done, that are interesting to do, and have some form of real-world (i.e. not just blockchain-contained) interaction, either input or output. What is Ethereum useful for, solidly, that I cannot do today?

jcfrei 12y ago

Ok, so from watching a few video introductions to Ethereum, I gather that you can create almost anything from it. But limitless applications doesn't mean it's going to be used by everyone, right? I mean how often do we enter a contract (outside of purchases) in our lifetime? of what use are smart contracts and organizations if they are not accepted by your local jurisdiction? How much does a user care about an application that is using a decentralized blockchain to store encrypted information? For example; if he can get a slightly better service for free by google, with the only downside that his emails are checked for advertising keywords. It seems most people still put a huge premium on ease of use. the biggest application I see for Ethereum is using it akin to the SETI project, but with a reward built in. Does the Ethereum VM support advanced math? Ie. complex numbers, high precision values? if so, I see a real use case there, or maybe in the form of some online games. but I'm skeptical of the "grand vision" a this point.

drcode 12y ago
> I mean how often do we enter a contract (outside of purchases) in our lifetime? In every email you read, every website you visit, every purchase, some sort of social contract exists. > Does the Ethereum VM support advanced math? Ie. complex numbers, high precision values? No, ethereum will not be good at or used for any of those things (directly). > of what use are smart contracts and organizations if they are not accepted by your local jurisdiction? Ethereum contracts are PRECISELY for instances where they aren't accepted by local jurisdictions, that's what machine-based enforcement is all about. Bottom line, you're thinking of ethereum as a "faster horse" whereas the ethereum team is trying to build a car- The use for ethereum is that it opens up new possibilities that never existed before. (not that I'm saying it's certain to succeed at this goal.)

brighton36 12y ago

>unlike Bitcoin, there is immediate use value for ether within the Ethereum network. You've clearly not used Counterparty yet. Give it a try, it's easy, offers a great featureset, and works 'today'.

Jd 12y ago
Actually I'm the founder of Swarm (www.swarmcorp.com) which is built on Counterparty. Very familiar with the platform ;) (although original post on Quora was written pre-Swarm)