5 ms·

Periodically someone will ask me if I've read any of the Song of Ice and Fire books. My answer is always no. Then I launch into a rant about the Wheel of Time

by zaphar 12y ago

Periodically someone will ask me if I've read any of the Song of Ice and Fire books. My answer is always no. Then I launch into a rant about the Wheel of Time series. I got sucked into that series on book one and chewed through it all the way to book 7. At book seven I had caught up to the author and the fact that he hadn't written the next book in the series yet gave me an opportunity to take stock. I realized that the books had been getting less satisfying and more work to read than before. I also realized that Robert Jordan didn't know how to finish the series. He hadn't met a plot line he didn't like. I was sure he would die before Wheel of Time was finished. Right then and there I decided I was done and would no longer give my money to the series or any other series that showed signs of the same problem. I totally called the Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan died and they had to bring in Brian Sanderson to finish. Brian definitely knows how to finish. But for me the magic had already gone. It's not out of a sense of entititlement. I just don't enjoy unfinished stories. It bugs the crap out of me. George R. R. Martin strikes me as an author with different symptoms but a similar problem. I'm not sure he knows how to finish it. I won't spend my money until he proves it.

seren 12y ago
I used to have a similar stance, and I agree on most points. Long series tend to become less and less interesting, and weirder as they go along (Dune, Gormenghast, Hyperion, ...) Maybe it is the novelty that wears off, the author has used his most powerful ideas first, or the last book is written because of children's college tuition. Moreover, even if I enjoy reading, I think that if the author hasn't managed to enclose a proper story in 500-1000 pages, there is probably something that is off. However, I have recanted my previous position because if every series tend to go downwards, why not reading the first few books? I'd rather enjoy the journey even if the final destination is a bit underwhelming. In the worst case, if the latter books are absolutely atrocious, I can live with reading a quick summary on Wikipedia.
- will_work4tears 12y ago
  Dune, sure, I get it (especially when his son took over). Hyperion though? If you count both parts as one series it's 4 books. Even at pretty respectable page contents, they don't compare to a series with 11 (? or more) books, many of which came pretty close to 1000 pages! It did get a little weird there at the end, but still pretty good books. And nowhere near as bad as WOT, or hell, not even as bad as the Sword of Truth series.
  - seren 12y ago
    Hyperion is mostly OK, and should maybe not be in the list, but the third book, Endymion, is basically a giant chase, and I found it weaker than the first two. For my defense, I have not read WoT or Sword of Truth because of their terrible reputation. But I have read the Belgariad, I can't really say it is getting worse, because it was not really good in the first place.
    - will_work4tears 12y ago
      Totally agree with your impressions of the Belgariad. I had a friend that just loved it and it was kinda... meh. I'm also with you on Endymion, the second part of the series was seriously lacking the same quality of the first two books. Also, for whatever it's worth, I've never read ASOIAF, though I've tried a couple times. Never could get into it. I kept getting the whole WOT vibe from it too (too many characters, too many subplots).
- masklinn 12y ago
  > I think that if the author hasn't managed to enclose a proper story in 500-1000 pages, there is probably something that is off. I really don't agree with that: 1. a series can be way more than a single story, The Dresden Files is 15 volumes of 300~500 pages each (let's call it 6000 pages), each story is mostly free-standing but they follow chronologically, it's a very episodic format if you will. Discworld has similar thematic subsets. 2. some stories just don't fit in in 1000 pages. Malazan Book of the Fallen suffered from a lack of editing at times and could probably have been a fair bit shorter, but not 10000 pages shorter, not by a long shot, the depth and breadth of the subject just wouldn't allow it.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > a series can be way more than a single story, The Dresden Files is 15 volumes of 300~500 pages each (let's call it 6000 pages), each story is mostly free-standing but they follow chronologically, it's a very episodic format if you will. Heck, while ASOIAF has an overarching story that is, as yet, incomplete, it has a number of complete and compelling (and, in some cases, overlapping or parallel) complete stories within it, some of which are neatly contained in particular books, some of which are not. Its one thing I think that makes ASOIAF more satisfying (despite the delays between volumes) than WoT.
  - chadgeidel 12y ago
    This is OBVIOUSLY my 2 cents... Re: 1. I think this is a different thing. If you want to tell a bunch of stories that are linked, that's fine. If you want to tell one giant story then at least have a plan. There's no indication that Jordan had "a plan". (I think this is the point the great-grandparent is making)
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      > I think that if the author hasn't managed to enclose a proper story in 500-1000 pages, there is probably something that is off. I think there are 2 different complaints here depending on how you interpret "proper": A) It takes too long to get to a conclusion of a series long plot. B) The series long plot is bad because the author did not plan ahead and just cobbled it together after the fact. masklinn gave a good response to A.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  In the case of ASOIAF, it seems like in spite of the mortality of the characters, GRRM has simply built up too many plot lines, too many characters to follow. The many narratives made the first few books compelling and full of perspective on a complex event- but the scope of the event continues to grow...
- Semaphor 12y ago
  > Long series tend to become less and less interesting, and weirder as they go along Malazan Book of the Fallen. ~3.325.000 words (200-400k per book) and the best series I've read in my life. Not the easiest to read with pretty complex story lines, somewhat weird timelines (see the Chronological order [1]) and certainly not the easiest book for a non-native speaker (never did I have to look up that many words) but rewarding and gripping until the very end. [1] http://i.imgur.com/sXBYA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/sXBYA.jpg
ZoF 12y ago
Robert Jordan told Sanderson how he wanted it to end, so he at least had an end in the works. I agree that the last few books before Sanderson started writing them were lower quality though, pretty much everyone does.
- masklinn 12y ago
  > Robert Jordan told Sanderson how he wanted it to end, so he at least had an end in the works. Technically, that never happened. Sanderson was picked by Jordan's widow, but Jordan had left extensive notes about where he wanted the series to go/end.
  - abakker 12y ago
    Of the 3 books Sanderson is credited as having written, he wrote more of the first two than the final volume. A Memory of Light had significant scenes written by RJ himself. Sanderson had to contribute heavily to the first 2 he wrote to get story lines wrapped up to RJ's specs, and to get everything to converge to match RJ's existing passages for AMoL.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
e28eta 12y ago
Brandon Sanderson. I empathize, I went through something similar. I picked up ASOIAF without realizing the series wasn't finished yet (predating the show by a year or two). When I reached the end of book 4, it had a little note about how some plot lines had been moved out of #4 and would show up in #5, which would come out shortly. Then I looked at the publication date, and thought "not again". They're still enjoyable to read, and I think Neil's got the right attitude. Personally, I think the show will catch, and pass, the novels, and it will become canon. And I'm okay with that too.
- bullfight 12y ago
  "...Journey before destination" There is far too much pessimism her about the experience of reading novel series. I've massively enjoyed the experience of reading ASOFIA, the world building, character development, politics and intrigue. The worlds in series like this are massive and the end of a series is the last chapter the author deigns to write. Sure they might be building towards something, but you can enjoy the series all the same without the "end". I read 1-5 ASOFAI in 6 months, having started just before the series aired. Do I look forward to the next in the series, of course, but in the mean time I have read > 60 other books some of them 2 or 3 times. Don't get stuck on one series, one author, or one genre, there is so much good fiction out every year that you will never be able to read it all.
  - zaphar 12y ago
    It's not pessimism. Some people enjoy the journey whether there is a destination or not. Some people only enjoy a journey when there is a destination. To each his own.
Touche 12y ago
It seems the problem is that the best way to make money as a science fiction author is to have a long running series that might get picked up as a movie/tv series. There's no incentive to ever finish the things until they've been milked dry.
- zaphar 12y ago
  That was certainly not the problem with WoT. It may or may not be the problem with ASOIAF or not I don't know. The real problem I think is when a writer doesn't know how to get where he wants to go and the story controls him rather than the other way around.
JoshTriplett 12y ago
I had the opposite reaction to Wheel of Time: I got partway through the first book, and immediately thought "wow, this author does way too much gratuitous worldbuilding and way too little story", and dropped it then. Worldbuilding is great, but frontloading way too much of it is a very bad sign, and I've pretty universally found that I don't enjoy books and series that do so. By contrast, I enjoy stories with a ton of worldbuilding woven into the narrative, discovered naturally as the characters go through it, with no massive infodumps.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  > I enjoy stories with a ton of worldbuilding woven into the narrative Brandon Sanderson
gretful 12y ago
Try The Dresden Files. It will be (at completion) approximately 26 books in length (yep, 26). Jim Butcher currently released book 15 (Skin Game). And I have to say, every book has gotten better than the previous book. Jim started out with a plan when he wrote the first book. Try it, you'll get addicted.
- y4mi 12y ago
  the way you say that makes that series seem so long, but the dresden files books are really short. wheel of time book length: 300.000 words. (series x 13 3.900.000) Dresden Files book length: 100.000 words. (series x 26 2.600.000) the wheel of time has an epic feel to it and the dresden files are really fun action books.
- zaphar 12y ago
  I already am addicted. The nice thing about a series like the Dresden files is that each book in the series feels like it could be finished in the very next book. Jim Butcher does a good job of moving things along without biting off more than he can chew.
zem 12y ago
wheel of time book 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books. now george martin's book 5 has me in a similar place - had book 6 been available i might have just kept reading, but given the enforced break i noticed that i actually didn't enjoy book 5 very much (it wasn't as horrible as jordan's book 7, but it simply wasn't enjoyable), and am feeling disinclined to follow the series any longer.
zem 12y ago
whebook 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books.
zem 12y ago
whebook 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books.
zem 12y ago
whebook 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books.

by zaphar 12y ago

seren 12y ago

I used to have a similar stance, and I agree on most points. Long series tend to become less and less interesting, and weirder as they go along (Dune, Gormenghast, Hyperion, ...) Maybe it is the novelty that wears off, the author has used his most powerful ideas first, or the last book is written because of children's college tuition. Moreover, even if I enjoy reading, I think that if the author hasn't managed to enclose a proper story in 500-1000 pages, there is probably something that is off. However, I have recanted my previous position because if every series tend to go downwards, why not reading the first few books? I'd rather enjoy the journey even if the final destination is a bit underwhelming. In the worst case, if the latter books are absolutely atrocious, I can live with reading a quick summary on Wikipedia.

will_work4tears 12y ago
Dune, sure, I get it (especially when his son took over). Hyperion though? If you count both parts as one series it's 4 books. Even at pretty respectable page contents, they don't compare to a series with 11 (? or more) books, many of which came pretty close to 1000 pages! It did get a little weird there at the end, but still pretty good books. And nowhere near as bad as WOT, or hell, not even as bad as the Sword of Truth series.
- seren 12y ago
  Hyperion is mostly OK, and should maybe not be in the list, but the third book, Endymion, is basically a giant chase, and I found it weaker than the first two. For my defense, I have not read WoT or Sword of Truth because of their terrible reputation. But I have read the Belgariad, I can't really say it is getting worse, because it was not really good in the first place.
  - will_work4tears 12y ago
    Totally agree with your impressions of the Belgariad. I had a friend that just loved it and it was kinda... meh. I'm also with you on Endymion, the second part of the series was seriously lacking the same quality of the first two books. Also, for whatever it's worth, I've never read ASOIAF, though I've tried a couple times. Never could get into it. I kept getting the whole WOT vibe from it too (too many characters, too many subplots).
masklinn 12y ago
> I think that if the author hasn't managed to enclose a proper story in 500-1000 pages, there is probably something that is off. I really don't agree with that: 1. a series can be way more than a single story, The Dresden Files is 15 volumes of 300~500 pages each (let's call it 6000 pages), each story is mostly free-standing but they follow chronologically, it's a very episodic format if you will. Discworld has similar thematic subsets. 2. some stories just don't fit in in 1000 pages. Malazan Book of the Fallen suffered from a lack of editing at times and could probably have been a fair bit shorter, but not 10000 pages shorter, not by a long shot, the depth and breadth of the subject just wouldn't allow it.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > a series can be way more than a single story, The Dresden Files is 15 volumes of 300~500 pages each (let's call it 6000 pages), each story is mostly free-standing but they follow chronologically, it's a very episodic format if you will. Heck, while ASOIAF has an overarching story that is, as yet, incomplete, it has a number of complete and compelling (and, in some cases, overlapping or parallel) complete stories within it, some of which are neatly contained in particular books, some of which are not. Its one thing I think that makes ASOIAF more satisfying (despite the delays between volumes) than WoT.
- chadgeidel 12y ago
  This is OBVIOUSLY my 2 cents... Re: 1. I think this is a different thing. If you want to tell a bunch of stories that are linked, that's fine. If you want to tell one giant story then at least have a plan. There's no indication that Jordan had "a plan". (I think this is the point the great-grandparent is making)
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    > I think that if the author hasn't managed to enclose a proper story in 500-1000 pages, there is probably something that is off. I think there are 2 different complaints here depending on how you interpret "proper": A) It takes too long to get to a conclusion of a series long plot. B) The series long plot is bad because the author did not plan ahead and just cobbled it together after the fact. masklinn gave a good response to A.
sliverstorm 12y ago
In the case of ASOIAF, it seems like in spite of the mortality of the characters, GRRM has simply built up too many plot lines, too many characters to follow. The many narratives made the first few books compelling and full of perspective on a complex event- but the scope of the event continues to grow...
Semaphor 12y ago
> Long series tend to become less and less interesting, and weirder as they go along Malazan Book of the Fallen. ~3.325.000 words (200-400k per book) and the best series I've read in my life. Not the easiest to read with pretty complex story lines, somewhat weird timelines (see the Chronological order [1]) and certainly not the easiest book for a non-native speaker (never did I have to look up that many words) but rewarding and gripping until the very end. [1] http://i.imgur.com/sXBYA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/sXBYA.jpg

ZoF 12y ago

Robert Jordan told Sanderson how he wanted it to end, so he at least had an end in the works. I agree that the last few books before Sanderson started writing them were lower quality though, pretty much everyone does.

masklinn 12y ago
> Robert Jordan told Sanderson how he wanted it to end, so he at least had an end in the works. Technically, that never happened. Sanderson was picked by Jordan's widow, but Jordan had left extensive notes about where he wanted the series to go/end.
- abakker 12y ago
  Of the 3 books Sanderson is credited as having written, he wrote more of the first two than the final volume. A Memory of Light had significant scenes written by RJ himself. Sanderson had to contribute heavily to the first 2 he wrote to get story lines wrapped up to RJ's specs, and to get everything to converge to match RJ's existing passages for AMoL.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

e28eta 12y ago

Brandon Sanderson. I empathize, I went through something similar. I picked up ASOIAF without realizing the series wasn't finished yet (predating the show by a year or two). When I reached the end of book 4, it had a little note about how some plot lines had been moved out of #4 and would show up in #5, which would come out shortly. Then I looked at the publication date, and thought "not again". They're still enjoyable to read, and I think Neil's got the right attitude. Personally, I think the show will catch, and pass, the novels, and it will become canon. And I'm okay with that too.

bullfight 12y ago
"...Journey before destination" There is far too much pessimism her about the experience of reading novel series. I've massively enjoyed the experience of reading ASOFIA, the world building, character development, politics and intrigue. The worlds in series like this are massive and the end of a series is the last chapter the author deigns to write. Sure they might be building towards something, but you can enjoy the series all the same without the "end". I read 1-5 ASOFAI in 6 months, having started just before the series aired. Do I look forward to the next in the series, of course, but in the mean time I have read > 60 other books some of them 2 or 3 times. Don't get stuck on one series, one author, or one genre, there is so much good fiction out every year that you will never be able to read it all.
- zaphar 12y ago
  It's not pessimism. Some people enjoy the journey whether there is a destination or not. Some people only enjoy a journey when there is a destination. To each his own.

Touche 12y ago

It seems the problem is that the best way to make money as a science fiction author is to have a long running series that might get picked up as a movie/tv series. There's no incentive to ever finish the things until they've been milked dry.

zaphar 12y ago
That was certainly not the problem with WoT. It may or may not be the problem with ASOIAF or not I don't know. The real problem I think is when a writer doesn't know how to get where he wants to go and the story controls him rather than the other way around.

JoshTriplett 12y ago

I had the opposite reaction to Wheel of Time: I got partway through the first book, and immediately thought "wow, this author does way too much gratuitous worldbuilding and way too little story", and dropped it then. Worldbuilding is great, but frontloading way too much of it is a very bad sign, and I've pretty universally found that I don't enjoy books and series that do so. By contrast, I enjoy stories with a ton of worldbuilding woven into the narrative, discovered naturally as the characters go through it, with no massive infodumps.

seanflyon 12y ago
> I enjoy stories with a ton of worldbuilding woven into the narrative Brandon Sanderson

gretful 12y ago

Try The Dresden Files. It will be (at completion) approximately 26 books in length (yep, 26). Jim Butcher currently released book 15 (Skin Game). And I have to say, every book has gotten better than the previous book. Jim started out with a plan when he wrote the first book. Try it, you'll get addicted.

y4mi 12y ago
the way you say that makes that series seem so long, but the dresden files books are really short. wheel of time book length: 300.000 words. (series x 13 3.900.000) Dresden Files book length: 100.000 words. (series x 26 2.600.000) the wheel of time has an epic feel to it and the dresden files are really fun action books.
zaphar 12y ago
I already am addicted. The nice thing about a series like the Dresden files is that each book in the series feels like it could be finished in the very next book. Jim Butcher does a good job of moving things along without biting off more than he can chew.

zem 12y ago

wheel of time book 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books. now george martin's book 5 has me in a similar place - had book 6 been available i might have just kept reading, but given the enforced break i noticed that i actually didn't enjoy book 5 very much (it wasn't as horrible as jordan's book 7, but it simply wasn't enjoyable), and am feeling disinclined to follow the series any longer.

zem 12y ago

whebook 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books.

zem 12y ago

whebook 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books.

zem 12y ago

whebook 7 was actually so bad it got me to abandon the series altogether, despite enjoying the first six books.