7 ms·

IMO, to be a successful CEO, women have to give up as much personal life as men do. if raising children is part of the equation, it just depends on how much eit

IMO, to be a successful CEO, women have to give up as much personal life as men do. if raising children is part of the equation, it just depends on how much either sex is willing to give that up for a career. i believe i've read that Elon's family is pretty hard-hit on the available-father standpoint stemming from his ambitions. also, depending on the size of the company, i think women CEOs need to take on some atypically aggressive and assertive business characteristics that are unbecoming of either sex but are typically more acceptable in society for men to step into. could a woman be the next Larry Ellison? certainly yes, but not without first taking on his asshole qualities. the aggressive characteristics that make him a great multi-$bn CEO also make him a pretty hated guy in many circles. there's a difference between business-respect and personal-respect, some people don't give a shit about the latter and will step on their partners' throats to get ahead.

bane 12y ago
> i think women CEOs need to take on some atypically aggressive and assertive business characteristics that are unbecoming of either sex but are typically more acceptable in society for men to step into. I agree. I'm going to come out and say it, it's difficult for a woman to step into any kind of leadership position and do the tough things without being perceived as a "bitch". One thing I've observed in women who might be perceived as successful in those roles is that they're able to find the right way of being in charge and overcoming those perceptions. I think it's a subtle attitude or behavior change, and it seems to be a fine line. But I'll also say that for men, they risk being perceived as "an asshole" in much the same way. And demonstrating assertiveness and leadership, being tough when it's needed it also a similar skill. I just think that men have more societal support and a few thousand years more practice and training to figure it out. Women have far fewer role models to pattern after.
- bryanlarsen 12y ago
  In many circles being an "asshole CEO" is seen as a good thing. c.f. Steve Jobs.
  - untog 12y ago
    But that's exactly the point. Men can be "asshole CEOs" and be respected. When women are "asshole CEOs" they are considered to be "bitches".
    - maxxxxx 12y ago
      Isn't "asshole" as negative as "bitch"? Woman or man, you probably won't be loved by everybody.
      - untog 12y ago
        Fine, throw out the word 'asshole' and replace it with 'unlikeable'. The point is that men can be unlikable and still command respect. Women are much less likely to be met with that reaction.
        seanflyon 12y ago
        > Women are much less likely to be met with that reaction. This does not seem to be the case in my small sample of anecdotal experience. Could you say a bit more on why you think it is the case in general?
      - the_af 12y ago
        To my (non native speaker) ears, "asshole" sounds less offensive because it's gender neutral. An asshole can be a man or a woman, but only a woman can be a bitch. So calling an aggressive or ruthless CEO "a bitch" sounds slightly more offensive and sexist to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
        jiggy2011 12y ago
        I've only ever heard asshole used in reference to men, the sentence "she's an asshole" sounds weird to me.
        bane 12y ago
- bcoates 12y ago
  I suspect this is an industry-specific thing -- I don't see a lot of public hate for Fortune 100 CEOs Marillyn Hewson or Phebe Novakovic, both leaders of companies much more significant than Yahoo.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  First lesson of executive leadership is that you need to learn how to not give a hoot about what people think about you on a personal level. If you're worried about being a <whatever> you are unlikely to succeed when things go bad and action needs to be taken.
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    >>First lesson of executive leadership is that you need to learn how to not give a hoot about what people think about you on a personal level. Incidentally, this is one of the primary characteristics of the now-abandoned concept of "sociopathy."
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    If you are considered a <whatever> to people you won't go anywhere.
  - leeoniya 12y ago
    despite you getting downvoted, there is some truth in this. but mostly at the very top of the food chain, where your sole accountability is to your shareholders which is expressed in terms of $$, nothing else.
- lyndonh 12y ago
  > it's difficult for a woman to step into any kind of leadership position and do the tough things without being perceived as a "bitch". I disagree that leadership is about being a bitch or an asshole. Yes, it's widely said that Steve Jobs was an asshole. But people "got" where he was coming from. He was a perfectionist. I'm pretty sure he didn't alienate all his friends. In leadership you have to be able to take tough decisions; but it's not about being tough with other people all the time. You might have to be tough with someone occasionally, it's a tool you might need to use. Take Martha Stewart for example. Tough bitch ? Successful CEO ?
- cauterized 12y ago
  Several psychological studies indicate that adjectives like "ambitious" are often perceived as positive when describing men but negative when describing women. That does make the female leader's role more challenging.
- nazgul 12y ago
  You learn to just embrace the bitch label. It's the only way to get through it -- you're going to get called one whether you are or not, so you might as well own it and make it work for you. I'm actually a very nice person and treat my employees wonderfully but I've been told scare the shit out of certain people who don't know me very well. My reports have actually told me they love my reputation; they promote it so that 1) they get what need from other departments easier and 2) they don't have people fighting to get their jobs (I have by far the best department/division/employees).
DevX101 12y ago
> women have to give up as much personal life as men do Women have to give up more than men. Guys can spend their 20s, 30s, and even 40s working nights and weekends to build the foundations of a successful company, with the goal of starting a family after they've 'made it'. The window of opportunity for women is a lot narrower. If you're a woman entrepreneur in your 30's and want to eventually start a family, you'll have some much tougher choices to make than a guy in a similar situation. I know people have done it before but I couldn't imagine going all out on the early days of building a startup while having to care for a baby, as a father or mother.
- k__ 12y ago
  > The window of opportunity for women is a lot narrower. Really? A friend of mine is 24 and her parents got here when they were in their sixties.
  - jw2013 12y ago
    You can always talk about edge cases, which do not reflect the reality for vast majority of women. At least the window to give a birth to a child for a average woman is a lot smaller than a average man.
    - k__ 12y ago
      It is smaller, but it's not like all women have to get their children before 30...
      - differentView 12y ago
        A male CEO of any age can have biological children with someone of prime fertility age. A female CEO doesn't have the same luxury.
  - barry-cotter 12y ago
    Your friend must be a test tube baby because all women have gone through menopause by 50.

bane 12y ago

> i think women CEOs need to take on some atypically aggressive and assertive business characteristics that are unbecoming of either sex but are typically more acceptable in society for men to step into. I agree. I'm going to come out and say it, it's difficult for a woman to step into any kind of leadership position and do the tough things without being perceived as a "bitch". One thing I've observed in women who might be perceived as successful in those roles is that they're able to find the right way of being in charge and overcoming those perceptions. I think it's a subtle attitude or behavior change, and it seems to be a fine line. But I'll also say that for men, they risk being perceived as "an asshole" in much the same way. And demonstrating assertiveness and leadership, being tough when it's needed it also a similar skill. I just think that men have more societal support and a few thousand years more practice and training to figure it out. Women have far fewer role models to pattern after.

bryanlarsen 12y ago
In many circles being an "asshole CEO" is seen as a good thing. c.f. Steve Jobs.
- untog 12y ago
  But that's exactly the point. Men can be "asshole CEOs" and be respected. When women are "asshole CEOs" they are considered to be "bitches".
  - maxxxxx 12y ago
    Isn't "asshole" as negative as "bitch"? Woman or man, you probably won't be loved by everybody.
    - untog 12y ago
      Fine, throw out the word 'asshole' and replace it with 'unlikeable'. The point is that men can be unlikable and still command respect. Women are much less likely to be met with that reaction.
      - seanflyon 12y ago
        > Women are much less likely to be met with that reaction. This does not seem to be the case in my small sample of anecdotal experience. Could you say a bit more on why you think it is the case in general?
    - the_af 12y ago
      To my (non native speaker) ears, "asshole" sounds less offensive because it's gender neutral. An asshole can be a man or a woman, but only a woman can be a bitch. So calling an aggressive or ruthless CEO "a bitch" sounds slightly more offensive and sexist to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
      - jiggy2011 12y ago
        I've only ever heard asshole used in reference to men, the sentence "she's an asshole" sounds weird to me.
        bane 12y ago
bcoates 12y ago
I suspect this is an industry-specific thing -- I don't see a lot of public hate for Fortune 100 CEOs Marillyn Hewson or Phebe Novakovic, both leaders of companies much more significant than Yahoo.
Spooky23 12y ago
First lesson of executive leadership is that you need to learn how to not give a hoot about what people think about you on a personal level. If you're worried about being a <whatever> you are unlikely to succeed when things go bad and action needs to be taken.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  >>First lesson of executive leadership is that you need to learn how to not give a hoot about what people think about you on a personal level. Incidentally, this is one of the primary characteristics of the now-abandoned concept of "sociopathy."
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  If you are considered a <whatever> to people you won't go anywhere.
- leeoniya 12y ago
  despite you getting downvoted, there is some truth in this. but mostly at the very top of the food chain, where your sole accountability is to your shareholders which is expressed in terms of $$, nothing else.
lyndonh 12y ago
> it's difficult for a woman to step into any kind of leadership position and do the tough things without being perceived as a "bitch". I disagree that leadership is about being a bitch or an asshole. Yes, it's widely said that Steve Jobs was an asshole. But people "got" where he was coming from. He was a perfectionist. I'm pretty sure he didn't alienate all his friends. In leadership you have to be able to take tough decisions; but it's not about being tough with other people all the time. You might have to be tough with someone occasionally, it's a tool you might need to use. Take Martha Stewart for example. Tough bitch ? Successful CEO ?
cauterized 12y ago
Several psychological studies indicate that adjectives like "ambitious" are often perceived as positive when describing men but negative when describing women. That does make the female leader's role more challenging.
nazgul 12y ago
You learn to just embrace the bitch label. It's the only way to get through it -- you're going to get called one whether you are or not, so you might as well own it and make it work for you. I'm actually a very nice person and treat my employees wonderfully but I've been told scare the shit out of certain people who don't know me very well. My reports have actually told me they love my reputation; they promote it so that 1) they get what need from other departments easier and 2) they don't have people fighting to get their jobs (I have by far the best department/division/employees).

DevX101 12y ago

> women have to give up as much personal life as men do Women have to give up more than men. Guys can spend their 20s, 30s, and even 40s working nights and weekends to build the foundations of a successful company, with the goal of starting a family after they've 'made it'. The window of opportunity for women is a lot narrower. If you're a woman entrepreneur in your 30's and want to eventually start a family, you'll have some much tougher choices to make than a guy in a similar situation. I know people have done it before but I couldn't imagine going all out on the early days of building a startup while having to care for a baby, as a father or mother.

k__ 12y ago
> The window of opportunity for women is a lot narrower. Really? A friend of mine is 24 and her parents got here when they were in their sixties.
- jw2013 12y ago
  You can always talk about edge cases, which do not reflect the reality for vast majority of women. At least the window to give a birth to a child for a average woman is a lot smaller than a average man.
  - k__ 12y ago
    It is smaller, but it's not like all women have to get their children before 30...
    - differentView 12y ago
      A male CEO of any age can have biological children with someone of prime fertility age. A female CEO doesn't have the same luxury.
- barry-cotter 12y ago
  Your friend must be a test tube baby because all women have gone through menopause by 50.