4 ms·

It doesn't even make any sense regarding highways. Ignoring their embarrassingly flawed standard for setting speed limits based on a percentile of speed limited

by wahsd 12y ago

It doesn't even make any sense regarding highways. Ignoring their embarrassingly flawed standard for setting speed limits based on a percentile of speed limited traffic, there are so many other factors that go into the danger of traffic that are wholly and totally separate from speed. I would argue that the speed is exponentially less significant than the skill and training and experience of the drivers. Take a comparison of the USA with Germany (where there are even roads that don't have a posted speed limit, which foreigners misunderstand for unlimited speed allowed). The USA's per capita automobile death rate is over twice as high as Germany's, in spite of speed limits in general being lower in Germany and there being far more and more generous roads in the USA. That's even with Germany being far more populated than the USA. So you might say, well, Americans drive more. Statistically speaking though, you would think that more driving on wider, bigger roads and in less densely populated areas would lead to less accidents and not more. And then when you look at the statistics of automobile deaths per miles driven you get a 55% higher death rate in the USA than in Germany. There seems to be rather tenuous correlation between traffic danger and speed, at best. The problem is horrible drivers, not speed. We should have a far more rigorous system of driving qualification and recertification. But who are we kidding, speed limits and enforcement have nothing whatsoever to do with safety. Divest the conflict of interest between governmental coffers and speeding tickets and then you can maybe start having a case that the motivations are somehow related to safety. But that's a whole different issue called unfettered government corruption and graft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-re...

nostromo 12y ago
Per-capita is a bad way of measuring auto-fatalities. The US is very spread out and requires a lot of driving. For example, just driving from SF to LA requires more driving than Cologne to Berlin. Per mile driven is much better, and it narrows the US gap with other countries substantially. (The US is slightly lower than Japan, slightly higher than France.)
- aetherson 12y ago
  Per mile is much better, but also not that good. There are a lot of variables here. How much of driving is at freeway speeds versus how much at lower speeds (where even worse accidents are less likely to cause fatalities)? How good is trauma care in that country (which can turn what would be a fatality in country A into an injury in country B -- and note that part of how "good" trauma care is has to do with how remote from a hospital traffic accidents are)? How modern are vehicles in that country, and what percentage are what kinds of vehicles (air-bag equipped modern cars are much safer than older cars, which are in turn much safer than motorcycles)? What kind of intersection traffic control is there? How good are the roads?
- apendleton 12y ago
  It depends what you're trying to measure, no? I agree that for the point being made it's not ideal, but I think it's separately noteworthy that in the US, poor planning and more car-dependent lifestyles lead to a higher rate of traffic fatalities because of how much more Americans end up having to drive.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
arthurdenture 12y ago
> The USA's per capita automobile death rate is over twice as high as Germany's, in spite of speed limits in general being lower in Germany and there being far more and more generous roads in the USA. [...] Statistically speaking though, you would think that more driving on wider, bigger roads and in less densely populated areas would lead to less accidents and not more. The relationship between forgiving roads and safety does not necessarily run in the direction you assume. People generally drive at a speed that feels safe, so a road that feels safe will have faster speeds. Faster speeds don't necessarily lead to more crashes, but they definitely lead to a higher rate of serious injuries and fatalities. Given a difference in fatality rate between two developed countries, I'd definitely look at factors like traffic engineering before jumping to the conclusion that, say, Americans are just worse drivers than Germans.
- 67726e 12y ago
  Given the large differences in standards, training, and attitudes about driving in the US vs. Germany. I would say calling American drivers as a whole, shittier, than German drivers is a not too far off assessment.
- ajmurmann 12y ago
  I agree completely that traffic engineering is much better in Germany and makes a huge difference. Roads are better sign posted, on ramps are very generous. As I mentioned elsewhere in Germany you are also not allowed to overtake on the right on the Autobahn. So there is a huge push for slow drivers to stay on the right and cars are nicely sorted by speed. Therefore you need to relatively rarely change lanes whereas in the US people will constantly change lanes on freeways especially in busy places like LA. That not only leads to higher risks and makes driving more aggravating, but also slows everyone down. It happens quite frequently here that I will be on a 3 lane freeway and there are three slow cars next to each other. That would be unthinkable. I believe that this allows the German Autobahn to serve more cars than freeways in the US while having in average fewer lanes. I always have this metaphor in my head where I think of it similarly to a Ethernet cable that can now submit more data because the protocol allows for fewer collisions etc.
colanderman 12y ago
I don't think you're disagreeing with the article's premise. Your "horrible drivers" can include people who either drive far too fast or far too slow, thus creating a speed differential. Lt. Megge's idea concedes that you can't get the fast drivers to slow down, but maybe you can get the slow drivers to speed up. (Aside, I agree 100% about more rigorous licensing. I spend 3 hrs on the highway each day; easily 80% of the drivers I see are utterly incompetent: texting, driving slow in the left lane, passing on the right, lights off at night, falling asleep, etc. Heck, I saw one driver eating out of a bowl with both hands.)
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  > driving slow in the left lane, passing on the right Is this two problems or one?
  - colanderman 12y ago
    People who drive slow in the left lane are a problem, people who pass on the right are also a problem. Both these problems can exist independently. (Frustrated drivers don't have to pass on the right; on three-lane highways, people sometimes pass in the rightmost lane when the leftmost lane is free.)
malchow 12y ago
The data in the Wikipedia article you cite can also be sorted by road fatalities by 1 billion vehicle/kms. This accounts for variance in population, auto ownership, and amount of driving. Country and traffic fatalities per 1b veh/kms. United Arab Emirates 310 Brazil 55.9 Slovakia 24.5 South Korea 22.8 Bulgaria 19.1 Estonia 17.5 Cyprus 16.7 Czech Republic 15.7 Malaysia 13.8 Spain 8.5 New Zealand 8.3 Japan 8.3 Belgium 7.7 United States of America 7.6 Slovenia 7.6 Austria 6.9 France 6.3 Canada 6.1 Switzerland 5.6 Israel 5.2 Australia 5.2 Germany 4.9 Netherlands 4.9 Malta 4.9 Finland 4.7 United Kingdom 4.3 Iceland 3.8 Sweden 3.7 Ireland 3.4 Denmark 3.4 Norway 3.3 As usual, everyone in the Nordics is home counting bullion, so nothing going on there. But among the more vibrant quarters the U.S. doesn't seem especially dangerous.
- danielq 12y ago
  Interesting to see Germany with 4.9 below the US with 7.6. In Germany, long stretches of quite a few Autobahns do not have a speed-limit at all. There are, of course, other differences between driving in the US and in Germany. source: I have been driving in both countries for more than 8 years; moved to the US little more than 8 years ago.
- jpollock 12y ago
  In New Zealand, the posted speed limit is often too high for the road. If you drive the speed limit, YOU WILL CRASH AND DIE - frequently taking another car with you. This is because: 1) Very few divided highways 2) Blanket speed limit of 100kph on open roads 3) Fun road obstacles - hairpin turns, single lane bridges, blind corners and no shoulder drops down cliffs.
  - sbalea 12y ago
    Wow, I was thinking just that. It's the only place i've seen posting a 100km/h limit on a narrow, barely two lane winding road, hugging a cliff. It was almost like a dare. The speed I felt safe at was no more than 50 km/h
- gabriel34 12y ago

by wahsd 12y ago

nostromo 12y ago

Per-capita is a bad way of measuring auto-fatalities. The US is very spread out and requires a lot of driving. For example, just driving from SF to LA requires more driving than Cologne to Berlin. Per mile driven is much better, and it narrows the US gap with other countries substantially. (The US is slightly lower than Japan, slightly higher than France.)

aetherson 12y ago
Per mile is much better, but also not that good. There are a lot of variables here. How much of driving is at freeway speeds versus how much at lower speeds (where even worse accidents are less likely to cause fatalities)? How good is trauma care in that country (which can turn what would be a fatality in country A into an injury in country B -- and note that part of how "good" trauma care is has to do with how remote from a hospital traffic accidents are)? How modern are vehicles in that country, and what percentage are what kinds of vehicles (air-bag equipped modern cars are much safer than older cars, which are in turn much safer than motorcycles)? What kind of intersection traffic control is there? How good are the roads?
apendleton 12y ago
It depends what you're trying to measure, no? I agree that for the point being made it's not ideal, but I think it's separately noteworthy that in the US, poor planning and more car-dependent lifestyles lead to a higher rate of traffic fatalities because of how much more Americans end up having to drive.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

arthurdenture 12y ago

> The USA's per capita automobile death rate is over twice as high as Germany's, in spite of speed limits in general being lower in Germany and there being far more and more generous roads in the USA. [...] Statistically speaking though, you would think that more driving on wider, bigger roads and in less densely populated areas would lead to less accidents and not more. The relationship between forgiving roads and safety does not necessarily run in the direction you assume. People generally drive at a speed that feels safe, so a road that feels safe will have faster speeds. Faster speeds don't necessarily lead to more crashes, but they definitely lead to a higher rate of serious injuries and fatalities. Given a difference in fatality rate between two developed countries, I'd definitely look at factors like traffic engineering before jumping to the conclusion that, say, Americans are just worse drivers than Germans.

67726e 12y ago
Given the large differences in standards, training, and attitudes about driving in the US vs. Germany. I would say calling American drivers as a whole, shittier, than German drivers is a not too far off assessment.
ajmurmann 12y ago
I agree completely that traffic engineering is much better in Germany and makes a huge difference. Roads are better sign posted, on ramps are very generous. As I mentioned elsewhere in Germany you are also not allowed to overtake on the right on the Autobahn. So there is a huge push for slow drivers to stay on the right and cars are nicely sorted by speed. Therefore you need to relatively rarely change lanes whereas in the US people will constantly change lanes on freeways especially in busy places like LA. That not only leads to higher risks and makes driving more aggravating, but also slows everyone down. It happens quite frequently here that I will be on a 3 lane freeway and there are three slow cars next to each other. That would be unthinkable. I believe that this allows the German Autobahn to serve more cars than freeways in the US while having in average fewer lanes. I always have this metaphor in my head where I think of it similarly to a Ethernet cable that can now submit more data because the protocol allows for fewer collisions etc.

colanderman 12y ago

I don't think you're disagreeing with the article's premise. Your "horrible drivers" can include people who either drive far too fast or far too slow, thus creating a speed differential. Lt. Megge's idea concedes that you can't get the fast drivers to slow down, but maybe you can get the slow drivers to speed up. (Aside, I agree 100% about more rigorous licensing. I spend 3 hrs on the highway each day; easily 80% of the drivers I see are utterly incompetent: texting, driving slow in the left lane, passing on the right, lights off at night, falling asleep, etc. Heck, I saw one driver eating out of a bowl with both hands.)

thaumasiotes 12y ago
> driving slow in the left lane, passing on the right Is this two problems or one?
- colanderman 12y ago
  People who drive slow in the left lane are a problem, people who pass on the right are also a problem. Both these problems can exist independently. (Frustrated drivers don't have to pass on the right; on three-lane highways, people sometimes pass in the rightmost lane when the leftmost lane is free.)

malchow 12y ago

The data in the Wikipedia article you cite can also be sorted by road fatalities by 1 billion vehicle/kms. This accounts for variance in population, auto ownership, and amount of driving. Country and traffic fatalities per 1b veh/kms. United Arab Emirates 310 Brazil 55.9 Slovakia 24.5 South Korea 22.8 Bulgaria 19.1 Estonia 17.5 Cyprus 16.7 Czech Republic 15.7 Malaysia 13.8 Spain 8.5 New Zealand 8.3 Japan 8.3 Belgium 7.7 United States of America 7.6 Slovenia 7.6 Austria 6.9 France 6.3 Canada 6.1 Switzerland 5.6 Israel 5.2 Australia 5.2 Germany 4.9 Netherlands 4.9 Malta 4.9 Finland 4.7 United Kingdom 4.3 Iceland 3.8 Sweden 3.7 Ireland 3.4 Denmark 3.4 Norway 3.3 As usual, everyone in the Nordics is home counting bullion, so nothing going on there. But among the more vibrant quarters the U.S. doesn't seem especially dangerous.

danielq 12y ago
Interesting to see Germany with 4.9 below the US with 7.6. In Germany, long stretches of quite a few Autobahns do not have a speed-limit at all. There are, of course, other differences between driving in the US and in Germany. source: I have been driving in both countries for more than 8 years; moved to the US little more than 8 years ago.
jpollock 12y ago
In New Zealand, the posted speed limit is often too high for the road. If you drive the speed limit, YOU WILL CRASH AND DIE - frequently taking another car with you. This is because: 1) Very few divided highways 2) Blanket speed limit of 100kph on open roads 3) Fun road obstacles - hairpin turns, single lane bridges, blind corners and no shoulder drops down cliffs.
- sbalea 12y ago
  Wow, I was thinking just that. It's the only place i've seen posting a 100km/h limit on a narrow, barely two lane winding road, hugging a cliff. It was almost like a dare. The speed I felt safe at was no more than 50 km/h
gabriel34 12y ago