14 ms·

Hahah, no. The Web is shit. You know how many web-based educational tools there are? You want to know how many of them are any good? Close to none. None are eve

by omouse 17y ago

Hahah, no. The Web is shit. You know how many web-based educational tools there are? You want to know how many of them are any good? Close to none. None are even close to the PLATO system or offer anything like the TUTOR language. Videos, lecture notes, and reading lists do not cut it.

andreyf 17y ago
One reason they aren't very good is that Blackboard Inc. makes a business out of suing anyone that tries to enter the market. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_Inc.#Blackboard_legal_issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_Inc.#Blackboard_lega...
- dasil003 17y ago
  The good news is that it looks like they won't be able to do it any more.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    Oh, wow, I linked that list without reading the latest version. That's really cool. Seems like a great time to start an education startup.
philwelch 17y ago
"Current implementations of this are shit" has never, ever been a tenable argument against fundamental technological change--even back to the days when firearms were a new thing.
- omouse 17y ago
  What are you talking about? Pushing more computer usage in education has been done for a long time. PLATO was an online system for education and it came into usage in the early 1970s. We've had a long time to learn from the mistakes of the past and to adapt all the good bits into current implementations. Working with shit that makes your life difficult is a damned good argument against online learning. A lot of people already hate dealing with systems like Blackboard. Would you like to torture them further and force them to use it on a daily basis?
  - philwelch 17y ago
    Your argument boils down to "hand cannon are slower to use and less safe than longbows". My argument boils down to "you can invent the flintlock musket, and if that's not enough to sway you, just wait a little longer and we'll have caplocks and repeating rifles."
    - krschultz 17y ago
      There is no invention that will replace great teachers. There is no invention that will replace working with a team of peers at your level on a difficult problem, and finally figuring out the solution and everyone LEARNS from the moment. There is no invention that will replace learning how to jump into many group projects over 4 years and get used to the social dynamics of that situation. The only thing technology can do is get the lecture part of the class conveyed to you at home. But my value from college is 10% from the lectures, 30% from the book on my own at home, and 60% from all the intangibles. I've learned a hell of a lot more at 2am in the study lounge with my friends trying to crack a problem than at 10am sitting in class listening to the lecture.
      - philwelch 17y ago
        You name a lot of elements which are not necessarily bound to the university experience. Technology can enable these elements to come together in a better way.
- krschultz 17y ago
  Education is not a technology. How do you replicate a discussion class? Everyone logs on at the same time in virtual reality at the same time?
  - jonknee 17y ago
    Seems like we're having a discussion right now... Online. On my other screen I'm following Apple's special event in real time. The technology is already here.
    - omouse 17y ago
      Ah yes, but can you share the information from that special event with us? Oh, we have to click a link to view it? Well what good is that. And we can't properly annotate it. Well shit, might as well go back to pen & paper.
      - jonknee 17y ago
        Of course I can share it. What's wrong with giving you a link? That's the base of the web. It's just text and graphics, you can annotate it however you want.
        omouse 17y ago
        Yes and the base of the web is insufficient. I won't get into it now though, I haven't had a coffee yet.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    meetup.com. Most of these are really simple problems if you're targeting the subset of people who care enough to take the initiative for their own education. In that case, the problem is not what to replicate, the problem is what to get rid of. One thing to get rid of is spending tens of thousands of dollars on tuition. Another is having to convince bureaucrats in the admission office to let you in. People will still move away to study if they can't find a community of peers where they live. The more self-directed students, though, don't need to pass through the admissions barrier or become part of an institution. The social aspects of college could actually be improved this way. Instead of being stuck with whatever 20-somethings were selected to the same college as you by merit of income level and admissions fiat, you could work with a self-selected group of ambitious full-time students and even experienced professionals trying to maintain and further their education. You're right--you have to build a social system, not just a technical system--but it's not impossible to build a better social system than the university. Technology's only an enabling factor, not the whole solution.
spudlyo 17y ago
I used the PLATO system a lot when I was a kid. Really opened my eyes to what computers could do, it was way ahead of its time. A touch screen WAN networked graphical terminal in 1979. Unfortunately I spent considerably more time playing EMPIRE than learning on it.

by omouse 17y ago

andreyf 17y ago

One reason they aren't very good is that Blackboard Inc. makes a business out of suing anyone that tries to enter the market. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_Inc.#Blackboard_legal_issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_Inc.#Blackboard_lega...

dasil003 17y ago
The good news is that it looks like they won't be able to do it any more.
- andreyf 17y ago
  Oh, wow, I linked that list without reading the latest version. That's really cool. Seems like a great time to start an education startup.

philwelch 17y ago

"Current implementations of this are shit" has never, ever been a tenable argument against fundamental technological change--even back to the days when firearms were a new thing.

omouse 17y ago
What are you talking about? Pushing more computer usage in education has been done for a long time. PLATO was an online system for education and it came into usage in the early 1970s. We've had a long time to learn from the mistakes of the past and to adapt all the good bits into current implementations. Working with shit that makes your life difficult is a damned good argument against online learning. A lot of people already hate dealing with systems like Blackboard. Would you like to torture them further and force them to use it on a daily basis?
- philwelch 17y ago
  Your argument boils down to "hand cannon are slower to use and less safe than longbows". My argument boils down to "you can invent the flintlock musket, and if that's not enough to sway you, just wait a little longer and we'll have caplocks and repeating rifles."
  - krschultz 17y ago
    There is no invention that will replace great teachers. There is no invention that will replace working with a team of peers at your level on a difficult problem, and finally figuring out the solution and everyone LEARNS from the moment. There is no invention that will replace learning how to jump into many group projects over 4 years and get used to the social dynamics of that situation. The only thing technology can do is get the lecture part of the class conveyed to you at home. But my value from college is 10% from the lectures, 30% from the book on my own at home, and 60% from all the intangibles. I've learned a hell of a lot more at 2am in the study lounge with my friends trying to crack a problem than at 10am sitting in class listening to the lecture.
    - philwelch 17y ago
      You name a lot of elements which are not necessarily bound to the university experience. Technology can enable these elements to come together in a better way.
krschultz 17y ago
Education is not a technology. How do you replicate a discussion class? Everyone logs on at the same time in virtual reality at the same time?
- jonknee 17y ago
  Seems like we're having a discussion right now... Online. On my other screen I'm following Apple's special event in real time. The technology is already here.
  - omouse 17y ago
    Ah yes, but can you share the information from that special event with us? Oh, we have to click a link to view it? Well what good is that. And we can't properly annotate it. Well shit, might as well go back to pen & paper.
    - jonknee 17y ago
      Of course I can share it. What's wrong with giving you a link? That's the base of the web. It's just text and graphics, you can annotate it however you want.
      - omouse 17y ago
        Yes and the base of the web is insufficient. I won't get into it now though, I haven't had a coffee yet.
- philwelch 17y ago
  meetup.com. Most of these are really simple problems if you're targeting the subset of people who care enough to take the initiative for their own education. In that case, the problem is not what to replicate, the problem is what to get rid of. One thing to get rid of is spending tens of thousands of dollars on tuition. Another is having to convince bureaucrats in the admission office to let you in. People will still move away to study if they can't find a community of peers where they live. The more self-directed students, though, don't need to pass through the admissions barrier or become part of an institution. The social aspects of college could actually be improved this way. Instead of being stuck with whatever 20-somethings were selected to the same college as you by merit of income level and admissions fiat, you could work with a self-selected group of ambitious full-time students and even experienced professionals trying to maintain and further their education. You're right--you have to build a social system, not just a technical system--but it's not impossible to build a better social system than the university. Technology's only an enabling factor, not the whole solution.

spudlyo 17y ago

I used the PLATO system a lot when I was a kid. Really opened my eyes to what computers could do, it was way ahead of its time. A touch screen WAN networked graphical terminal in 1979. Unfortunately I spent considerably more time playing EMPIRE than learning on it.