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There's a Bitcoin company which I will elide naming that is, perhaps unintentionally, a carder cash out bonanza. It will continue being so until Amazon cracks

by patio11 12y ago

There's a Bitcoin company which I will elide naming that is, perhaps unintentionally, a carder cash out bonanza. It will continue being so until Amazon cracks down. The gist: the site lets you buy BTC with credit cards, at a substantial markup to the market price for Bitcoin (10 to 20%). The actual mechanism is by buying wish listed items on Amazon picked by the BTC "sellers." This lets the sellers use BTC on Amazon and also get a discount. The site keeps a spread. Why is this a carder paradise? Because the only reason to ship a random address a $300 camera for $240 of consideration is the $300 you paid is not your $300. When the chargeback/fraud investigation comes in, the carder doesn't have the stolen goods and has no IRL nexus to the crime. They just have their illicit profits laundered to BTC.

sanswork 12y ago
I wouldn't say unintentionally it is brought up every time I've seen them discussed. It seems pretty wilful. They always claim they are ok because Amazon has really good fraud detection and wish list purchases with fraudulent credit cards aren't held against the user with the wish list. To me that sounds like a) holding your hands over your eyes to ignore the fraud and b) like a disaster waiting to happen for anyone that uses the site regularly and ends up with a few fraudulent purchases sent to them. Imagine regularly having goods shipped to your house from stolen/fraudulent credit cards. I see someone having the police show up at their door due to this site by the end of the year.
- judk 12y ago
  This is inherent in BTC. How can you have anonymous transactions and still avoid fraud?
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    This isn't BTC fraud, it's CC fraud with a traceable shipping address.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      The recipient associated with the shipping address hasn't committed any fraud though.
      - sanswork 12y ago
        Best case scenario they get the stolen property taken off them and they are out the bitcoins. Worst case how do they prove they weren't the buyer?
        dublinben 12y ago
        It's not stolen property though, it's property purchased with (presumably) fraudulent credit card details. They can prove they're not the buyer, because the buyer has a completely different name.
        sanswork 12y ago
        It's property that has been sent without payment received. It's stolen. >They can prove they're not the buyer, because the buyer has a completely different name. It doesn't matter the fraudulently purchased goods were shipped to your house. You are in possession of them and you're the person most likely to have committed the credit card fraud. Either way you are out the property even if you don't get investigated for credit card fraud. Do it a few times though and it will be difficult to explain away.
        dublinben 12y ago
        If it ever came to trial, there would be no proof that you'd been the one that committed the fraud. That's where the burden of proof lies, and there's simply no evidence.
        sanswork 12y ago
        There would be a lot of evidence though. The fact that on multiple occasions items purchased with stolen credit cards were sent to you and you had not returned those items implying you were expecting them. You'd have to come up with evidence to prove it wasn't you that ordered it and good luck with that.
eps 12y ago
http://purse.io http://purse.io
downandout 12y ago
I would be terrified to use PurseIO as a BTC "spender". I'm guessing that many of these orders end with cops knocking on the door of the spender, because they received merchandise purchased with a stolen credit card. I think it's an interesting idea, but I can't believe that many BTC holders are inviting this kind of scrutiny.
- wcummings 12y ago
  I agree, I wouldn't be uncomfortable using it, but it's unlikely the cops are knocking on doors to investigate minor cc fraud cases
judk 12y ago
How is this different from the "gift card network" that I can use to indirectly pay for a VPN? When I saw that I screamed "money laundering!"
judk 12y ago
Why does the location of the product matter? The crime is the fraudulent credit card use, which is well documented by Amazon, not receiving the camera. Oh, you mean because there is no evidence pointing to the physical location or identity of the carded.

by patio11 12y ago

sanswork 12y ago

I wouldn't say unintentionally it is brought up every time I've seen them discussed. It seems pretty wilful. They always claim they are ok because Amazon has really good fraud detection and wish list purchases with fraudulent credit cards aren't held against the user with the wish list. To me that sounds like a) holding your hands over your eyes to ignore the fraud and b) like a disaster waiting to happen for anyone that uses the site regularly and ends up with a few fraudulent purchases sent to them. Imagine regularly having goods shipped to your house from stolen/fraudulent credit cards. I see someone having the police show up at their door due to this site by the end of the year.

judk 12y ago
This is inherent in BTC. How can you have anonymous transactions and still avoid fraud?
- nitrogen 12y ago
  This isn't BTC fraud, it's CC fraud with a traceable shipping address.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    The recipient associated with the shipping address hasn't committed any fraud though.
    - sanswork 12y ago
      Best case scenario they get the stolen property taken off them and they are out the bitcoins. Worst case how do they prove they weren't the buyer?
      - dublinben 12y ago
        It's not stolen property though, it's property purchased with (presumably) fraudulent credit card details. They can prove they're not the buyer, because the buyer has a completely different name.
        sanswork 12y ago
        It's property that has been sent without payment received. It's stolen. >They can prove they're not the buyer, because the buyer has a completely different name. It doesn't matter the fraudulently purchased goods were shipped to your house. You are in possession of them and you're the person most likely to have committed the credit card fraud. Either way you are out the property even if you don't get investigated for credit card fraud. Do it a few times though and it will be difficult to explain away.
        dublinben 12y ago
        If it ever came to trial, there would be no proof that you'd been the one that committed the fraud. That's where the burden of proof lies, and there's simply no evidence.
        sanswork 12y ago
        There would be a lot of evidence though. The fact that on multiple occasions items purchased with stolen credit cards were sent to you and you had not returned those items implying you were expecting them. You'd have to come up with evidence to prove it wasn't you that ordered it and good luck with that.

eps 12y ago

http://purse.io http://purse.io

downandout 12y ago

I would be terrified to use PurseIO as a BTC "spender". I'm guessing that many of these orders end with cops knocking on the door of the spender, because they received merchandise purchased with a stolen credit card. I think it's an interesting idea, but I can't believe that many BTC holders are inviting this kind of scrutiny.

wcummings 12y ago
I agree, I wouldn't be uncomfortable using it, but it's unlikely the cops are knocking on doors to investigate minor cc fraud cases

judk 12y ago

How is this different from the "gift card network" that I can use to indirectly pay for a VPN? When I saw that I screamed "money laundering!"

judk 12y ago

Why does the location of the product matter? The crime is the fraudulent credit card use, which is well documented by Amazon, not receiving the camera. Oh, you mean because there is no evidence pointing to the physical location or identity of the carded.